Tuesday, October 6, 2009

What You See Might Not Be Real, indeed

A work of art, which I will not reproduce here, depicts Bernie Madoff with horns. (The sculpture by Chen Wenling is titled "What You See Might Not Be Real," and is on display in Beijing.)

On Alas, the blog that posted this image, I objected. Depicting "Jews with horns" is gross, antisemitic and disgusting. I gave some famous examples. (Moses with horns, Trotsky as the devil.)

Well, I got taken down a notch. Shut up, ignorant white trash!

Although I belong to the same Big Church that Michelangelo did (and have consequently had Pieta prayer cards foisted on me at more funeral masses than should be allowable), I was nonetheless patronized by someone of another faith who thinks I don't know (you silly redneck!), Michelangelo didn't mean it like that. (Well, maybe he did and maybe he didn't--have you spoken with him directly?)

Granting the point that Michelangelo probably did not mean that Moses had devil-horns, I clarified that I was speaking of the way his work was subsequently USED, not how his work was INTENDED.

And finally, I am lectured that the Jews-with-horns/Jews-as-devils trope is "relatively obscure" (!!!) so knock that silly shit off.

From the link above:

"Holy shrines were erected to honor innocent Christian victims [of satanic rituals said to be conducted by Jews], and well into the twentieth century, churches throughout Europe displayed knives and other instruments that Jews purportedly used for these rituals. Caricatures of hunchbacked Jews with horns and fangs were depicted in works of art and carved into stone decorating bridges. Proclaimed by parish priests to be the gospel truth, each recurrence of the blood libel charge added to its credence, thus prompting yet more accusations. This vicious cycle continued to spiral."
Italics mine.

Not obscure. APPROVED BY THE CHURCH.

Now, if yall want to praise sculptures of Jews with horns (progressive, anti-capitalist sculptures, of course!), well, who am I to argue with that? Obviously, nobody. What do I know?

Yes, I know my place. Never mind! (This is my usual experience at the blog in question, which is why I rarely post there now.)

First, I offered the Trotsky example too (no horns, just devil). Second, this isn't "relatively obscure" at all (see above paragraph) and the horns reference even made it into the Oscar-winning (that is to say, not obscure) movie NORMA RAE. Then again, she was white trash too, wasn't she?...so never mind!

Further, if a religious believer dared write about our "Spidey senses tingling" --in judging whether something is offensive, they'd EAT US ALIVE. (The educated atheists and agnostics can be as irrational as they wanna be and it's okay. But us uneducated, dumb hillbillies better back everything we say up with copious links and footnotes, or we are stupid.)

Duly noted! Another day, another lesson in Elite Blogdonia Etiquette.

...

Just wondering: why does everyone at that blog talk down to me like they do? If I changed my commenting name to "OxfordGrad"--would they instead thank me for my quick eye and sensitivity, and gush all over me like they do those other people?

What other name should I choose for my next visit to ALAS? VassarGal, OrangeCountyTennisChamp, YachtMan (oh wait, they already have the popular "Sailorman"--one of the Head Patronizers), HarvardRadical, YaleGrrl, something catchy like that?

With one of those dynamite handles, I'll bet they'd even ask me to come back! That's certainly never happened before! ;)

68 comments:

Ann oDyne said...

Go Daisy! I'm on Your Team.

(and ha! the W V is realkint )

Weer'd Beard said...

Very few people are aware of the Horned Jew depiction. A rabbi once told me it was actually because the Hebrew and Latin words for Halo and Horn are very similar, so when the scripture mentions that having spoken to God Moses has a halo, it was translated mistakenly as "Horns"...and of course taken advantage of.

Of course a more interesting idea is what does a person represent. Certainly Madoff was a Jew, but does his image represent Judaism? He certainly wasn't much of a Jew, cheating and stealing from his own people, as well as abusing their confidence (and of course the potential for their own implicit guilt in the Ponsi scheme can be discussed as well) but can't he represent much more? Theft? Confidence Schemes? The Darker side of the stock market? Evils of Capitalism? The list goes on, but certainly Madoff is not an icon associated with Judaism on a level with Moses.

Trotsky was born from a Jewish family, but he was non-practicing Jew who pressed for secularism in a Marxist Society.

The picture you posted in no way was a comment on his Jewish decent (I'm also curious how you even define "Jew", are you doing it as a race or a religion?) but of his Marxist views and accomplishments.

I certainly agree with the commenters that you've taken this wayyy out of context.

Blue Heron said...

I think that you are dead on. Madoff has been a lightening rod for people to vent their anti semitic anger. Steering around Weer'd Beard's hair splitting on the race or religion question, which I fail to see as germane, I think that the horns can not ever be justified. Right out of the protocols of zion, the forged tomes that taught that jews sought out christian children for blood sacrifice. And Madoff certainly represents a major jewish stereotype for people, the conniving cheat. The alleged killers of christ still are still demonized in many christian communities, sometimes subconsciously.

The nazis didn't care if you were practicing or not, orthodox or humanistic, or even atheistic, if you had the blood, you were going to the chambers.

YogaforCynics said...

Having known a lot of Ivy League grads, and having been an Ivy League professor, myself, for a year...and having known lots of Brits...I can say that graduates of top colleges, the British, and, thereby, graduates of top British colleges, can be as dumb as anybody...so that anybody who fawns over an Oxford Grad (or someone who uses such as an on-line handle) is only showing, once again, that those who fawn on the supposedly intelligent wouldn't know intelligence if it bit them on the ass, and the same goes for those who substitute name-dropping the fancy schmancy school their rich parents bought their way into for having anything original to say...

DaisyDeadhead said...

Weerd, as I told you in the thread you trashed with your ill-mannered temper tantrum, I do not reward bad behavior. I have no desire to talk to you further.

After trolling me extensively and totally ruining my Real Housewives of Atlanta thread, you are no longer welcome here. Go away. All further comments of yours will be deleted.

The picture you posted in no way was a comment on his Jewish decent.

The poster of Trotsky as the devil (a pentagram around his neck, in place of another kind of star) is regarded as a pretty famous example of the antisemitic campaign waged against Trotsky. If you can't see this, again, you are not welcome to post here, because it tells me quite a lot about you.

Again, all further comments will be deleted.

Anonymous said...

Ya know, I am actually Jewish; i actually have spent quite a bit of time dealing with antisemitism. In fact, even on Alas I'm often arguing against Ampersand (the blog owner) when it comes to, say, Israel issues.

So if you think that disagreeing with you on this particular issue means somehow that I am generally rejecting the issue of antisemitism.. well, you're wrong. Similarly, if you think that disagreeing with you on a particular blog means that we all march in lockstep... well, you're wrong again.

I am really scratching my head about this post. Why are you acting so persecuted?

-Sailorman

DaisyDeadhead said...

Sailorman, goodness, its really you. Gonna faint.

"Persecuted" isn't quite the word; the word I used, patronized, is. On ALAS, I am treated like I am stupid and don't know anything--in fact, go through most of my posts on ALAS and you will find numerous replies "correcting" me and schooling me, just as Chingona did in that thread. (Why would she assume I didn't know that stuff when I am the one who brought up the Moses statue in the first place, for instance?)

I never get this constant condescension and "schooling" from any other blog I visit. Why do you think that is? Why do you all find it so necessary to educate my poor uneducated ass?

Since you enjoy the schooling as much as the rest of them, how about you explain why you talk down to me the way you do?

And I do not refer to any intellectual or political "lockstep"--just a group-think attitude regarding certain outsiders--and increasingly, you'll notice, outsiders don't post there anymore.

If that's what Amp wants, well, as I said, never mind!

PS: Weeerd, I wasn't joking, hon.

Weer'd Beard said...
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Rootietoot said...

Oh honey, why do you worry your sweet little mind about such things? Just sit in the corner like a good li'l Southern blond and let the real minds tend to business.
(*snnnnght*)

I quit trying to understand those people a long time ago...perhaps "understand" is the wrong word..."relate to" or maybe "converse with" would be better. As a dumb housewife, it's easier to leave them to their lofty edumicated philosophyzing pedestals and go on about my business.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Weerd Beard is now bragging at his blog, "Looks like I picked up another ban." The post is titled "Badge of Honor"...

((sigh)) And here I was, some hippie trying to be fair.

If I'd known it was his actual goal here, I would have banned him much sooner.

Dennis the Vizsla said...

I wonder how large a sample Weer'd polled to determine that "very few people are aware of the Horned Jew depiction". I wasn't in it.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Damn, my tracking shows that he has been reading my blog all night. (I think somebody needs a girlfriend.)

I am a post-menopausal grandma, but I can still reel in the menz like fish on the line! Now you all see how I ended up with three husbands; I have a sense of mystery that attracts men half-a-continent away.

((preens))

Weer'd Beard said...
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Weer'd Beard said...
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Weer'd Beard said...
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DaisyDeadhead said...

Weerd, how many women have you raped, who have asked you to stop?

Weer'd Beard said...
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Weer'd Beard said...
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Weer'd Beard said...
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DaisyDeadhead said...

I'm too sexy for my shirt!

Some of us, men just find IRRESISTIBLE. :P

Rachel said...

wow. I had heard of the whole "Jerome misunderstood and translated the rays of light as horns" thing, but I didn't know this was linked to something anti-semitic. thanks for your post. (sorry it drew another troll-turd.)

JoJo said...

I, for one, was not aware of the Jews w/ horns things, nor was I aware that Madoff was Jewish. Does everyone have to play the race and religion card when it comes to these kinds of things? Can't it just be a sculpture of an evil man who fucked over many, many people and is now getting his just desserts?

wriggles said...
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Doc Anchovy said...

I'm too sexy for my Ashkenazim Mother's maiden surname, Sammet. It means: "maker or purveyor of velvet" and I wear it like Heaven, to paraphrase Donovan Leitch.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Jojo, I am pretty sensitive to that kind of thing. As a Catholic, I have guilt over the type of behavior described in the link. And I grew up hearing those kinds of remarks/jokes:

Q: Why do Jews wear yarmulkes?

A: To hide the horns.

Honestly, I thought everyone had heard those jokes and that they were commonplace.

Doc: I wear it like Heaven, to paraphrase Donovan Leitch.

Ohhh, Doc, you made my day. I adore that song.

And now I think I have a new earworm, too. :P

JoJo said...

OMG Daisy!!! I NEVER heard that horrible joke in my life! UGH! I was also raised as a Catholic, but despite my parents being pretty conservative, fortunately for me mine was not a home where hatred of races/people was allowed. My mom grew up in Yonkers, NY surrounded by all races, creeds & religions. My dad's from S. America. My closest cousins lived on Long Island for years and had tons and tons of Jewish friends. I never ever heard those jokes.

chingona said...

Daisy,

The reason I didn't post anything here before is because 1) you misrepresented me so grotesquely that I didn't believe you actually wanted engagement and 2) the last time I commented on your blog you browbeat me into a litmus test as a Jew before I was allowed to discuss the issue at hand and told me I should be grateful that Christian End Times scenarios will give me a last chance to repent.

So I don't trust you one bit.

But I wasn't "schooling" you or trying to school you. I was explaining why I didn't think your Moses example fit the "Jew-as-devil" motif. If I just said "I don't think it's a good example" and stopped there with no explanation of why I thought that, that would be ... well, an odd way to make an argument. And when you said you meant "how you've seen it used" and not necessarily the sculpture itself, then I thought "Oh. Okay."

I was nonetheless patronized by someone of another faith who thinks I don't know (you silly redneck!), Michelangelo didn't mean it like that. (Well, maybe he did and maybe he didn't--have you spoken with him directly?)

This cuts two ways. If I can't comment on something related to Catholicism, then maybe you should keep your opinions on Jewish stuff to yourself. Or we can stick to the way it was - everyone gets to have an opinion. I like the second way better.

My best guess on what Michelangelo meant is that he probably was an antisemite, being a man of his time and his place, but he didn't put horns on David, who was also a well-known Jew. There's also the story of the harrowing of hell, so Michelangelo probably thought Moses was saved after-the-fact. So no, I don't it's reasonable to view the horns on Moses as "Jew=devil." And neither do you. But I had no way of knowing that until you explained yourself further because all you did in your first comment is link a picture of the Moses statue with the statement that Jews-as-devils is a well-known motif.

Believe me when I tell you that I have absolutely zero faith in the benevolence of your church when it comes to Jews. That's not what the debate on Alas was about. The debate on Alas was about one piece of art and what it meant and didn't mean. You had one view. I had another. For you to respond to mild disagreement with some sort of act that you care more about antisemitism than any of us, when we're the ones who will actually suffer the consequences of it, is just a wee bit patronizing.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Chingona: the last time I commented on your blog you browbeat me into a litmus test as a Jew before I was allowed to discuss the issue at hand and told me I should be grateful that Christian End Times scenarios will give me a last chance to repent.

What? When was this?

As far as I know, this is your first visit here. If you've been here before, it wasn't under the name "Chingona"...I just checked all the threads under the antisemitism tag, and I don't see you in any of them.

Since what you have said isn't my opinion (and is in fact not even Catholic doctrine), I am somewhat puzzled. Do you have a link to this discussion?

If I can't comment on something related to Catholicism, then maybe you should keep your opinions on Jewish stuff to yourself.

Who said you can't comment on Catholicism? Comment on whatever you please. (?)

For you to respond to mild disagreement with some sort of act that you care more about antisemitism than any of us, when we're the ones who will actually suffer the consequences of it, is just a wee bit patronizing.

This is not my view either and that is not how I acted.

My view is that at Alas, I am treated like hillbilly white trash. That fact has no connection to the statement you just wrote.

Wee bit patronizing, indeed.

Back up your first accusation, please.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Hmmm Chingona, if you are "TFB" in this thread, ("too fucking bad?") you have not summed up our discussion accurately. (PS: and when patronizing assholes barge onto my blog accusing me of being in Bizarro World, they can expect 'browbeating' or worse.) So, I guess I don't trust you one bit either.

And how was I supposed to know you were 'Chingona' and not some troll (which I initially believed you were, due to the name)? Is there some reason my blog didn't rate your usual screen name?

See reference to white trash, above.

Weer'd Beard said...

Where did my comment go?

DaisyDeadhead said...

Weerd Beerd, I'd like to speak to you personally. You work at CURIS, is that correct?

CURIS Corporate Headquarters
45 Moulton Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
Tel: [617] 503-6500
Fax: [617] 503-6501

Is that the number I should call? What is your extension? Or should I ask for the resident gun-nut?

IP address: 66.228.88.118

Does Curis know you are using their resources and computers to harass women? If not, I'll be happy to let them know.

If they do know, or if you are one of the owners of CURIS, we can escalate this. I think CURIS needs to be boycotted for allowing their employees to harass feminists. I can start that ball rolling, if you want.

Let me know how you want to play this. Ball is in your court, dude.

PS: I have "do follow" enabled on my blog, so whenever anyone Googles CURIS for any reason, they will also get this information, that one of their employees is harassing women and will not stop. But I'm sure that's okay with you, since you are so proudly continuing the harassment.

DaisyDeadhead said...

BTW, if anyone else wants to contact CURIS to let them know what their misogynist employees are doing instead of working, here is the contact form.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Well damn, after a whole week of harassment, aren't you at least gonna give me your extension?

Don't you wanna get to know me BETTER?

Weerd Beerd, I hate to see it end like this. :(

chingona said...

I have never commented as anything other than chingona.

Crys T said...

Daisy - If you go down further in that thread you posted to, you'll find chingona's comments.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Chingona, I found it, sorry...God, that thread got long-winded and I am a lot to blame for that!

Crys T, I remember you very well from the Ms boards, girlfriend. (My screen name was "China Cat Sunflower"--changed to "Scarlet Begonias" after the mighty board crash!) You were so great there--extending a hearty welcome. :)

DaisyDeadhead said...

Chingona: the last time I commented on your blog you browbeat me into a litmus test as a Jew before I was allowed to discuss the issue at hand and told me I should be grateful that Christian End Times scenarios will give me a last chance to repent.

Okay, I have just read the entire thread in question, and do not see where I did or said any of these things. I was very forceful re: my political point, but where is this "litmus test as a Jew"? I asked you the same question I asked every other participant. (I count four other Jews in that thread who openly agreed with me.) I said nothing about being "grateful" for anything--as I repeatedly stated, the term "privilege" was never MY word-choice, but David Schraub's.

I even apologized to you for misunderstanding one of your points.

Sometimes, I feel like I am speaking another language to you folks (meaning, highly-educated folks) and just can't make myself understood. As I said at Alas, all of these meanings are ascribed to me, and I just didn't say any of those words. I am very, very precise about which words I use, and my actual words are ignored in favor of words I never used. (?) Why?

PS: I already know the answer to that, but classism is not an issue for discussion on ALAS. We can talk about it here, though!

chingona said...

I don't know what there is to discuss. No one called you ignorant white trash. No one implied you were ignorant white trash. The basis of the disagreement was not that I or any other commenter there has greater knowledge than you but that we interpret the knowledge we have differently.

You accused me of calling you ignorant white trash, and you're upset because your words are being misinterpreted?

I have no idea what your education level is. I have no idea of the education level of other people on Alas. I also don't care. My father didn't finish high school, and he's one of the smartest people I know.

chingona said...

And Daisy, the litmus test is that I had to denounce any and all U.S. aid to Israel before I would be allowed to criticize Christian Zionism. That some Jewish commenters agreed with you does not make it any less of a litmus test.

chingona said...

re: grateful

Do you think a second chance is better than burning in hell for all eternity? Obviously, YMMV.

You do realize that believers of no other religion get another chance?


and

You don't see that compared to all other non-Christians, you are getting treated differently by Christian theology?

Jews have been singled out as being somehow better, somehow worthy of a second chance.


re: you telling me not to discuss Catholicism

Although I belong to the same Big Church that Michelangelo did (and have consequently had Pieta prayer cards foisted on me at more funeral masses than should be allowable), I was nonetheless patronized by someone of another faith

Since you are someone who chooses her words very precisely, I assumed you saw some relevance to the fact that Michelangelo was Catholic, you are Catholic, and I'm not. Otherwise, why mention it at all? If I was Catholic, would my statement be rendered not patronizing? What about me being of another faith made my statement patronizing?

re: claiming you care more about antisemitism than the Alas community as a group

Now, if yall want to praise sculptures of Jews with horns (progressive, anti-capitalist sculptures, of course!), well, who am I to argue with that?

You oppose antisemitism so much you're not even going to post the image, not like those people at Alas, who will go along with antisemitism so long as it is "progressive."

How else am I supposed to read that? What was your actual meaning?

Now you do the same. You quote my actual words and tell me where I "patronized" you in the initial discussion.

Blue Heron said...

An interesting thread. I am both jewish and a zionist, possibly a pariah in many circles.

I have never seen Daisy take a stand that made me the least bit uncomfortable. I think this post shows an interesting sensitivity on the moderator's part that many christians lack.

Today Antonin Scalia said that a war memorial featuring a cross honors all war dead, even jews and muslims, while jewish and muslim veterans said that it made them uncomfortable. But he knows best, doesn't he.

The majority often throws its weight around in our culture, with little thought to the consequence, but I guess the privilege of being a minority in America is that you are supposed to shrug your shoulders and shut the fuck up.

Then again racism is a double edge sword, and ingrained in all of us to some degree. My father, can decry anti-Semitism but not have a problem making crappy comments about the schvartses.

I must say that Daisy (REAL NAME?) is pretty adroit intellectually, takes no shit from anyone, and doesn't need to be self deprecating regarding her level of education. Methinks she has had plenty. There is smart and there is "write for Harpers smart" with the attendant corduroy jackets with the leather patches on the elbows. Read Updike and Bellows, become an alcoholic, have multiple affairs and finally blow your brains out.

I'm with Daisy.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Chingona: And Daisy, the litmus test is that I had to denounce any and all U.S. aid to Israel before I would be allowed to criticize Christian Zionism.

I asked the same of anyone else on that thread who disagreed with me.

The subject of the thread was military aid to Israel, where it comes from and why. (The war in Gaza, which Schraub discussed, could not happen without it.) I was trying to bring the thread back to first principles.

That is not a litmus thread, that was the SUBJECT of the thread.

I don't know what there is to discuss. No one called you ignorant white trash.

Telling someone in certain haughty language "what they really mean" is condescending, patronizing, and is a regular occurrence on Alas. (If I mean something, I will tell you outright. I rarely couch it in euphemism.)

But even more than that, there seems to be this overriding sentiment that *I* don't even know what I "really" mean, and you do. Check out that first thread you posted on and note the language in your post--you accused me of "defining antisemitism based on the intent of the Christian Zionist as opposed to how it is perceived by many Jews."

No, my thread was about Christian Zionist support of Israel. But see how you corrected my delusions and carefully informed me of what it was REALLY about? (That is probably why I was instantly argumentative and defensive. And since its my blog, I think I really DO know what I meant the subject to be, and that weren't it.)

This kind of language, the habit of putting words in my mouth, rephrasing what I say to mean something else, happens more on Alas than on even right-wing blogs I visit. I am trying to figure out why. (Amp is too busy putting a variety of words in my mouth to care much.)

And now say you "don't trust me one bit." I have spent my whole life working for many progressive causes, but this is not sufficient to gain your trust. I posit that if I were more like you, regardless of my views on Israel or Bernie Madoff, you would trust me.

In all honesty, I am regularly "schooled" on Alas, and lashed out (probably unfairly) at the people posting there. I should be more specific, although I did single out Sailorman.

I have no idea of the education level of other people on Alas. I also don't care.

If I said I didn't know you were Jewish and didn't care, how would that sound?

I think we all know that classism, like racism, isn't always a matter of doing things *deliberately* offensive, but can still offend.

I can't think of any other reason for this problem I have on Alas. I started thinking about classism when I realized the rightwingers I regularly argue with are working class, and we do seem to understand each other better, even through all the hostility.

As I said, I feel like I am speaking another language over there. I have no other explanation for it, other than perhaps the old standby: I am just too stupid and/or inarticulate to make myself properly understood.

And I suppose that could be it.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Chingona: re: grateful

Quoting me: Do you think a second chance is better than burning in hell for all eternity? Obviously, YMMV.

You do realize that believers of no other religion get another chance?


and

You don't see that compared to all other non-Christians, you are getting treated differently by Christian theology?

Jews have been singled out as being somehow better, somehow worthy of a second chance.


Okay, I'll bite.

Where is the word "grateful" in that passage? I looked and looked, and didn't see it.

There you go again, putting words in my mouth, goddammit.

I meant what I said, and nothing else. The words I used: you are getting treated differently, singled out as being somehow better

Where does that jump to, "you oughtta feel grateful"? I have no such opinion. In fact, the context of these statements was Schraub's concept of "gentile privilege." How do these theological views reconcile with the fact of gentile privilege? Obviously, it means fundies will use these reasons (idealization of Jews) to do AS THEY PLEASE, in ways that will BENEFIT THEIR THEOLOGY.

Where did I say "grateful"? I know I didn't say it, because I don't think it.

Chingona: re: you telling me not to discuss Catholicism

Quoting me: Although I belong to the same Big Church that Michelangelo did (and have consequently had Pieta prayer cards foisted on me at more funeral masses than should be allowable), I was nonetheless patronized by someone of another faith

Okay, I'll bite. Where is the instruction not to talk about Catholicism? I have looked and looked and I DON'T SEE IT.

Once again, stop putting words in my mouth.

Chingona: Since you are someone who chooses her words very precisely, I assumed you saw some relevance to the fact that Michelangelo was Catholic, you are Catholic, and I'm not. Otherwise, why mention it at all?

I mentioned it because of the prayer cards. Of course I have seen the horns on the Moses prayer cards. (?) Yes, I have had them explained away, as all of us folks who were a bit taken aback by the sculpture asked the reason for the horns and had them explained away.

If I was Catholic, would my statement be rendered not patronizing? What about me being of another faith made my statement patronizing?

I assume a Catholic would also have had the horns explained away, since it is also a subject of homilies from time to time, esp if the priest is using the RSV rather than NRSV, KJV or Douay Rheims. ("horns of light" I believe was the phrase) I am not sure of the phrase Wycliff used, but I don't think that was it. I do not have time to look up Robert Bellarmine's word choice in the Latin Vulgate.

re: claiming you care more about antisemitism than the Alas community as a group

Quoting me: Now, if yall want to praise sculptures of Jews with horns (progressive, anti-capitalist sculptures, of course!), well, who am I to argue with that?

This was just sarcasm. (I am long weary of oppressive language/art/movies/TV being excused by radicals if it fits into their cause celebre of the moment)

2b continued...

DaisyDeadhead said...

Chingona: You oppose antisemitism so much you're not even going to post the image, not like those people at Alas, who will go along with antisemitism so long as it is "progressive."

No, I won't post it. I do think people are excusing it because it is "progressive" and anti-capitalist. This is my opinion. This doesn't mean I "care more" than other people, and again, STOP PUTTING WORDS AND INTENTIONS IN MY MOUTH.

[Note: As it never occurred to you that perhaps I do these things because I worry I don't care/do as much as I should?]

How else am I supposed to read that? What was your actual meaning?

See above.

Now you do the same. You quote my actual words and tell me where I "patronized" you in the initial discussion.

See previous post. See above.

And please, I'd appreciate just ONE post that isn't telling me what I "really" mean.

Because you are waaaay, waaaay off base.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Blue Heron: Today Antonin Scalia said that a war memorial featuring a cross honors all war dead, even jews and muslims, while jewish and muslim veterans said that it made them uncomfortable. But he knows best, doesn't he.

What a dick he is! He never quits, either.

chingona said...

I posit that if I were more like you, regardless of my views on Israel or Bernie Madoff, you would trust me.

You're wrong.

chingona said...

Where is the word "grateful" in that passage? I looked and looked, and didn't see it.

There you go again, putting words in my mouth, goddammit.


Using one word to sum up an argument is "putting words in someone's mouth" but accusing someone of calling you "ignorant white trash" when they didn't is ... what?

chingona said...

Well, this has been exactly as productive as I thought it would be. See ya round.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Chingona, well, I did risk my life to take on nazis in Skokie and Marquette Park, Illinois (in 1978). Perhaps those events do not mark me as trustworthy to you, but they were life-changing experiences for me, and they matter. Announcing (to Alas readers?) that I am untrustworthy is a personal attack, tantamount to saying I am not who I say I am and/or have not worked for justice. Is that a fair assessment, or don't you care about whether it is?--since I'm sure you will be listened to far more than I will be.

Can I ask: What political work have you done/do you presently do? How do you decide if someone is untrustworthy as a political comrade? Do you think it's constructive to go around judging who is untrustworthy on the left? And by what authority do you have to pronounce that I am not to be trusted? Just because of one thread?

Wow.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Chingona: Using one word to sum up an argument ...

Um, the wrong fucking word ..but I suppose this is quibbling in Chingona-land.

Chingona: is "putting words in someone's mouth" but accusing someone of calling you "ignorant white trash" when they didn't is ... what?

Um, hyperbole? An attempt to be funny? Impersonating Ron White?

I did NOT put quotes around "ignorant white trash"--you just did. I did not quote anyone directly. I did not even mention you by name at all.

Chingona: Well, this has been exactly as productive as I thought it would be. See ya round.

I take it this means I will not get answers to my questions concerning exactly what qualifies you to judge my trustworthiness? (Now, how did I know I'd never get that question answered?)

Yo, Sailorman: You asked what the problem was, and here is Exhibit A. Chingona comes here to argue, I explain myself to a fucking fare-thee-well, and she just writes me off as a common pissant. If I were somebody she deemed important, she'd care about making it right with me. (I care about making it right with her, actually, which is why I have written all of this... but I am worth no such reciprocal concern.) After all, the stakes have been raised... I am now UNTRUSTWORTHY as well.

Anyway, Sailorman, I trust this thread answers all of your questions. I think I have finally figured it out, anyway.

Blue Heron, thanks.

Bryce said...

yankees dont know who Ron White is, D. & theyd sneer if they did. why do u care about these ppl's approval? just cuz they act superior doesnt mean they are.

EBG said...

Alas reversals have begun.

They're now saying *you* are the anti semetic one, since you were uppity enough to dare arguing w/them (reversal). Dianne says 'deadhead' sounds like a *high-class* name (reversal). Alas reversals are priceless. By the time there through it will all be flipped upside down & *they* will be the brave progressives opposing the statue & you will be the bad anti semetic person. *They* will be 'the workers' & you will be the rich girl dissing *them*. It's already happening. Ampersand's army of groupies specializes in this. Any one who pisses them off gets this treatment & is piled on.

Remember at Feminist Critics you wouldn't criticize Ampersand? I figured it was because he linked you, but now I think it was because you really want his approval. (what Bryce said) Why? He's a dilletante, phoney & liar. I was there when he talked shit to other men for years as *good male feminist* Then he sold his website (part) to porn merchants 1st chance he got. This is not what you call a serious radical. Why do you expect him to act like one? Chingona is one of Amp's loyal little groupies, probably assigned by daddy Amp to come over here & talk sense to you. Btw, you talk 'trust' you are talking old school. She doesn't have that knowledge. These aren't political people as you & I understand the meaning. They sound all self important on blogs, but twist there arms till they go 'ow' & they'll start crying & vote republican in a new york minute. I have no respect for these phoney assholes. Look how you made the bitches cry just in writing a pissy post.

Superb job getting rid of the troll.

Blue Heron said...

Who's Ron White, Bryce - Inquiring yankees want to know...I can't begin to understand what the hell EBG is talking about - maybe internecine blogger warfare, very confusing. But I think linking Semitism/anti-Semitism to class struggle issues is a bit far reaching. Making the "bitches cry" sounds like a gangsta rappa.

I'm with the proletariat and I
make the bitches cry
quoting Trostsky talking trash
I'm so far down I'm fly.

chingona said...

I came to talk to you here because you asked us to talk about this post here, and not at Alas. I came to talk to you here out of respect for your request.

I called it quits because the conversation was going nowhere. I've called it quits with Sailorman and PG, both of whom are far more educated than I am, because our conversations were going nowhere. I've also continued conversations that were going nowhere and really regretted it later. And now I'm really calling it quits.

SnowdropExplodes said...

I'm just catching up on this thread, and I just had a little giggle at this bit:

For you to respond to mild disagreement with some sort of act that you care more about antisemitism than any of us, when we're the ones who will actually suffer the consequences of it, is just a wee bit patronizing.

Why?

because of a little clip in "West Wing":

Josh Lyman: "You have an inadvertent habit of putting down my Jewishness by implying you have a sharper awareness of anti-Semitism than I do."

Admittedly, he was talking to Toby Ziegler, another Jewish character, but hey - the similarity of the two remarks (Chingona's and Josh's) was close enough to make me laugh.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Blue Heron, Ron White is a famous "redneck comedian"...but I guess not famous enough for the people at Alas to catch my references.

Blue Heron said...

I have been off television for getting on two decades so I miss a lot. Thanks.

just another dh lurker said...

Diane talking about DHs on Alas reads like 1960s white anthropologists when they visited the inner cities and wrote about "the ghetto" lol: "If it helps any, my baseline for “poor” is someone who isn’t sure if they’re going to have enough to eat tomorrow and don’t have anyone they can turn to to ask for food if not." lol, perfect description of DHs. A big reason I quit roadtripping was the panhandling and hitch hiking. Diane = another Alas denizen who doesn't get your jokes, D. ("Panhandling corner" for donations)

DaisyDeadhead said...

Lurker, yeah! Me and several other deadheads are having a pretty good laugh over it.

This is inspiring mirth:

If for no other reason than that the Dead didn’t play small, small towns like they lived in and they’d have little recourse for getting to a concert and discovering that they wanted to do it.

...which, you know, ignores most of the history of the band! WTF is she talking about? And that's why God invented hitchhiking, to get to the shows! LOL, clueless as hell. But see, even though clueless, she feels okay blabbing her ignorance everywhere. I certainly wouldn't. (You will never see me discuss hip-hop online, unless in the books of Michael Eric Dyson!)

That's how you know (before she even tells you) that she was never poor herself. She feels entitled to opine about a subculture she obviously has NO in-depth knowledge about. I often wish I had that kind of intellectual bravado and could bluff my way through.

EBG, speaking of Feminist Critics, Daran heard about the pile-on and didn't waste time jumping on. Not surprisingly, he loves Dianne! I wonder what rabidly anti-feminist stuff she said to gain THAT status? Enquiring minds want to know! :P

(Daran is just as authoritative and expert about everything as she is, and that's probably the reason for the mutual admiration society.)

John Powers said...

I hadn't followed the discussion on this post until today. I'm perplexed by it.

You are a very careful wordsmith. Sometimes I think my confusion stems from taking precisely the wrong meaning for words. For example "classism" is a word you use that's tripped me up here before. Knowing that you are well versed in Marx, I've tended to associate your use with that sort of analysis where classes are related to the means of production. Likewise I've tended to connect your use of "ageism" to economics.

But understanding your meanings in economic terms doesn't seem to work very well. What really seems at stake is your reputation.

Perhaps a better understanding of your usage might come from the quality Southern Culture of Honor?

Following the culture of honor, responding to insult is is valued to show that you can protect your property. This value doesn't really track economic status, but is regionally more prevalent in the South. Responding to insult may increase a person's status in the South, but not necessarily elsewhere.

I'm not at all sure that the Southern culture of honor really helps understanding. I put it out so you can knock it down. What I am sure of is when you say "classism" I don't precisely know hat you mean.

Mama Moretti said...

Another train wreck! This is why I don't have my own blog, D.

I like how you explained classism: "putting words in your mouth" - the whole thread over there is doing exactly that. They do it to you but not each other. Good call.

DaisyDeadhead said...

John, hey there, missed you, dude!
I thought I explained the classism, but maybe not. I am attempting a longer post about it, but I've stalled out (and little time right now). I am still sorting it all out. I am also in the process of investigating some examples sent to me privately, that fit my definition.

To wit, I believe one of the major traits of online classism is: deciding what certain people's statements "really mean" and what their intentions must be. As I've said on this thread: putting words into people's mouths. I am, suddenly, starkly aware of who consistently gets this treatment and who doesn't; some bloggers/commenters have the power to do this to people, and some don't. The power comes from having enough people online (of your class and shared perceptions) to back you up and engage in pile-ons with/for you. I don't have many of MY people online to back ME up... in fact, most are not online, as you and I have discussed before.

There are a confluence of factors regarding why I am here and they are not...foremost among these is marriage to a geek who taught me to use computers for recreation (rather than work). Also, I like to write and always have. Put these two factors together, and here I am. But most redneck-hippies are not online, and if so, as "consumers" (what's that word you used, some time ago? Net-something? Can't find the thread now!) and not as people with their own blogs and/or who comment on other blogs regularly. And as I have said before, I think class is the reason for this division, too. (If one has limited access to blogs, as I did for years, you are reluctant to comment on boards/blogs since you don't know when you'll ever be able to check them again, if someone should reply to you personally.)

And so, when certain people using certain locutions show up, speaking very "directly" (or whatever it is they think we do that is rude and uncouth, I've never figured that part out) middle-class Blogdonia reflexively circles the wagons. As with any other unconscious prejudice, I don't think it's deliberate.

But once called on it, there is no effort to say "Gee, could she be right?"--in fact, it just gets worse, as people further announce that all education is class-oriented, for example (in the Alas thread).

I chose the schools I did, in my post, Vassar, Harvard, etc for their class associations... I do not think Ohio State or Clemson are on the same class-level as those schools. But instead, they saw it as me attacking the idea of education. I deliberately used school-names because I think young people and students ("VassarGal") are treated the very BEST of all commenters in Blogdonia. (Of course, the age angle was missed entirely, by ALL of Amp's commenters.) They rate an almost cult-like level of respect.

So, as we see, when I return the favor and mirror/imitate their behavior, as I did in the post (i.e. you "really meant" to call me white trash), they become quite furious. (They don't seem to realize I am consciously mirroring their behavior, and certainly, as we have established, didn't get my Ron White jokes at ALL. I dunno WHAT I was thinking...) They will not be told what THEY are thinking/saying/meaning/intending, but they are perfectly okay doing that to me. Mama understands what I am saying! (thank you, MM)

And now, we have MRAs in the thread, piling on me for previous offenses. The fact that Amp is allowing that, is pretty shitty. (But maybe I should have listened to Kitty Glendower's separatist gang about that, LOL. They warned us! I made my bed... etc.)

2b continued

DaisyDeadhead said...

Anyway, I don't expect this state of affairs to change until large numbers of working class and poor people are participating in lefty Blogdonia. And that may never happen. Twitter is opening up the doors, though... people are following links, and lets hope they start getting more involved. Once different forms of discourse and language are more common, I think this will dissipate.

I am still upset that Twitter and most online activity is still oriented towards the young. I met a great old woman the other day who had an encyclopedic knowledge of alternative medicine, and had extensive courses/training in Europe, etc... I told her she needed to blog about that stuff. She said she'd touched a computer maybe three times in her life.

And that's what I'm talking about.

After more working class/redneck feminist women, in the south, of my age group, etc are online, we can discuss the "southern culture of honor"--but right now, I think I am just one of very few of my kind online. As a result, they are free to tell me what I "really mean" (without anyone contradicting them and offering any alternative explanations), complete with an attendant "Yeah, fuck her!" chorus.

There are lots and lots of them, and very few of me. More of me, and I won't be so peculiar and horrible to them.

Just my opinion, after days of thinking it over.

PS: The troll also made me far more touchy than I ordinarily would have been... he has been harassing me for a solid week, which is why I finally went all Big Brother on his ass. But this is a good illustration of the psychological damage that extensive trolls do, too.

Good to see you, John! :)

Blue Heron said...

While neither a redneck nor a woman, I would like to offer my two cents, not that anyone has asked.

I have been dirt poor in my life, then ridiculously wealthy, and then in a reverse horatio algers penthouse to the outhouse scenario, got real poor again. We have managed to extract ourselves from the swamp somewhat the last ten years but still live modestly and would love an occasional vacation.

So I have mixed with a lot of classes in my life. I hated the rich when I was grooming their spoiled daughter's horses when I was young and got my first sniff of the entitled. Then I started ascending the ladder and mixing with these people.

I have found that poverty doesn't bequeath any special wisdom or benediction in this world. I meet rich assholes, I meet poor assholes. And the inverse. So unless you were part of the "voluntary simplicity" movement that reared its head about the time Coevolution Quarterly ceased to exist and made a conscious decision to be poor, the class thing doesn't resonate too much. For me.

I saw a lot of nature loving, back to the earth hippies morph into porsche driving coke snorting fools once upon a time and lose their souls. But I work at nonprofits now where wealthy people are tireless altruists as well. And see how the working class doesn't have time to be bothered much of the time. Too much Nascar or something.

I think that you are a lovely, brilliant belle of the south, and 4 tattoos non withstanding, fail to see the redneck. Skynard listening, rebel yell drinkin, stars and bars wearing, pitbull in the back of the pickup redneck. What's with the sobriquet?

John Powers said...

I'm really really happy you write online Daisy. You are one of my "must-read" destinations for so many reasons. One of the those reasons is that you are so longsuffering with fools like me;-)

I'm not sure that "redneck" automatically translates to "working class."

Classism is just as relevant in the South as anywhere else in the country. But there's a sort of conversation special to the South, I'll call: "Damn Yankee!" that's not restricted to a particular class. You know you're a Redneck if you're fluent in "Damn Yankee."

If "Redneck" is thought synonymous with "working class" it's easy to think that "Damn Yankee" talk is talk about classism.

A friend of mine made a film, "Miss Moossy Discovers Conflict Cuisine." She cast it by telling her ethnically diverse friends to come to the shoot in character as whatever ethnicity hates theirs. Worked like a charm. Living in the north, albeit north + Appalachia, but having lived in the South, I've heard plenty of "Damn Yankee" and not all of it spoken by working class folk.

Sometimes what you ascribe to "classism" sounds very much accented with "Damn Yankee." Teasing out regional mores from classism is useful because the sorts of changes to work towards are different.

"Netocracy: the new power elite and life after capitalism" by AlexanderBard and Jan Soderqvist is what I referenced about online dynamics before.

passinthru said...

This was a debate, somewhere? Oh, please. Yes, it's anti-Semitic, and classically so.

wv=intion, and good intentions aren't sufficient

Blue Heron said...

re: your new handle - I've always been partial to Muffin. I think that was the name of Dan Ackroyd's sorority girlfriend in Trading Places.

Laci the Chinese Crested said...

Hi there! Stand your ground, Woman! You are in the right here.

BTW, I posted a Dead song, which you may or may not like.

"One way or another this darkness got to give!"