Tuesday, July 2, 2013

Michigan Womyn's Music Festival: transphobia revisited

Unfortunately, the ongoing brawl over the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival (herein known by its nickname, Michfest) continues on for another year.

Each year seems more contentious than the last. Increasingly, there are pro-trans demonstrations at festival, featuring t-shirts emblazoned with "Trans Women Belong Here". QueerFatFemme believes that women should attend specifically to protest the omission of trans women, and believes someday the rules will change, as they eventually evolved to include BDSM and "chem-free space" -- neither of which were initially greeted with kindness. (NOTE: Trans women have attended the festival since its inception, even performing/working there, despite the official rule excluding them. Trans women were already an integral part of Michfest BEFORE the rule became "official" -- so this exclusion can also be viewed as an EXILE.)

This year--in response to a petition--Lisa Vogel, Michfest co-founder/owner of festival land, issued a very confusing statement. She seems to be winking at the presence of trans women, as long as they properly keep their heads down and shut up about it. One might even read the statement as green-lighting the admission of trans women in a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" fashion. Vogel's statement reads, in part:
The Festival, for a single precious week, is intended for womyn who at birth were deemed female, who were raised as girls, and who identify as womyn. I believe that womyn-born womyn (WBW) is a lived experience that constitutes its own distinct gender identity.

As we struggle around the question of inclusion of transwomyn at the festival, we use the word intention very deliberately. Michigan holds this particular lived experience of womanhood as honorable, meaningful, unique and rich. Our intention has always been coupled with the radical commitment to never question any womon's gender. We ask the greater community to respect this intention, and to value the complexity and validity of every gender identity, including that of WBW. The onus is on each individual to choose whether or how to respect that intention.


This whole fiasco seems emblematic of the stand-off between radical feminists and trans women, and it makes my head hurt. We should all be getting along, dammit. I often find trans women to be instinctively feminist, due to their unique experiences, and I want them in our ranks. However, lots of radical feminists don't. Further, the two groups seem singularly obsessed with pissing each other off, creating endless Tumblr pages/blogs dedicated simply to trashing the other side. And these hate-blogs (as Mama Moretti commented here) get TONS of hits, every time they are updated.

Some people spend all their online-time enumerating why the other side is not just wrong, but EVIL. Some people, frankly, seem driven nearly insane over it.

I recently wrote about the incident at Portland State University during the recent Law and Disorder Conference, in which trans activists attacked a Deep Green Resistance display table for selling literature they deemed transphobic and unacceptable (I still don't know specifically WHICH BOOK they were selling that set everyone off)... and I expressed my disapproval of their tactics, which included destroying books, marking people up with magic-markers and throwing burritos. Even though I have written here (at great length) of my crazy-Yippie past (and similar tactics *I* have engaged in), I wrote that I now know (as a radical living in possibly the reddest state in the South) what it is like to be the hapless person on the other end of that behavior... and I have grown to believe that these types of tactics are NOT very effective, even if they are great fun and feel deliciously self-righteous. I think these tactics may even do HARM to a cause, sometimes even bringing sympathy to those who are attacked and accomplishing the opposite of what we intended.

The excitable gang over at Feministe became very angry with me; they wrote several enthusiastic posts announcing that I am a Bad Person and saying "fuck you"--which I found even more alarming. Obviously, discussing long-term strategies and points of agreement is no longer even considered an acceptable goal; the war has advanced to the point that there can be no efforts at Detente that don't appear to be "pandering" to one side or another. (sigh)

And Lisa Vogel's strange, ambiguous statement certainly did not help the situation.


Still, I gotta wonder, is Michfest (a throwback to feminism's Golden Era) an event that trans women truly want to attend? Most women *I* know have not even heard of it (or are only peripherally aware of it) and show absolutely no interest when you tell them about it. Why is this such a big deal to trans women--just because its off limits to them? (I no longer want to attend, for instance, although I did attend way back in the aforementioned Golden Era.) Why does THIS PARTICULAR EVENT matter so much, when there are plenty of other places/events that are also off-limits to them?

Why do trans women care so much what radical feminists (specifically) say about them?

Why do radical feminists believe trans women (specifically) are such a threat? (And before you answer, "because they believe they are men!"--keep in mind, they seem FAR more aggravated by trans women than they are by men. Many of these hate-blogs do not even write much about feminist political issues, but only cover an issue like abortion when trans women say critical things, or declare it isn't as important to them as radfems believe it should be.)

I admit: I don't get it. And the longer the war continues, the less I get it. It strikes me as patently bizarre.

Yes, the old hippie is pleading for peace. I fully expect to be pilloried, but blessed are the peacemakers.

Buddha told me this would be rough.


The newest salvo fired at the radfem faction is THIS rather disturbing 2008 Philadelphia Gay News story by radfem Victoria Brownworth. This is OLD news, so at first, I wondered why the trans faction was dredging it up at this rather late date.

Then I read it.

Ohhhh my goodness.

I confess, I was pretty upset and disgusted. This is bad. Like, really really bad. Cristan Williams writes at TRANSADVOCATE:
The reason I chose to do this article is that Brownworth, a self-identified radical feminist, has written extensively about power, privilege, the need for acceptance, boundaries and the well-being of kids. Yet here – even though she felt it was “creepy,” “wrong” and even though she also felt “anxious” about it – she asked this kid to have access to his genitalia (if you believe what she wrote in 2008).

If the power roles were reversed and it was an adult pre-op transwoman who came across a vulnerable 15/16 year old cisgender girl with an illicitly obtained genital body modification, would RadFems (or anyone for that matter!) view it as being okay if the transwoman gained access to the girl’s genitalia for a peek? What if the transwoman then discribed the girl’s genetalia in detail – down to what her cliterous looked like – in newsprint and/or on the internet? What if the transwoman, five years later, tweets that she felt “creepy/wrong” about it but nevertheless defended her actions by saying that the girl asked the transwoman to do it? What would happen? What would be said about that situation?

Take the trans issue out of this. If this was an adult cisgender woman and a vulnerable 15/16 year old cisgender boy with an illicitly obtained genital piercing or tattoo, we all intuitively understand that it’s inappropriate for an adult to deliberately gawk at the kid’s junk while they’re nude, much less detail what the kid’s genitals looked like in print or the web! Yet because it’s transkid, nobody has said anything for FIVE YEARS!
Awful, just awful. I was genuinely disturbed that Brownworth thought it was ever acceptable to exploit this child in this manner. I hope someone can locate this young person (named Devon, who would now be 20 or 21?) and affirm that he is okay.

Regarding this story, Brownworth's various replies to her critics are ... off. Just off. Strange. A lot like Lisa Vogel's bizarre non-statement. It is as if these radfems don't really believe they are dealing with human beings or something. Brownworth seems actually taken aback that you would ask her about it.

Meanwhile, as we speak, the radfems line up and obediently back up Brownworth, even in an instance when she was OBVIOUSLY very wrong.


It all just makes me so ashamed.


Mama Moretti said...

you quoted meeeee! <3 thnx!

marjaerwin said...

I haven't been to Michfest. Because I'm trans and sensory defensive, I probably won't be to Michfest anytime soon.

But friends who have attended say it's an amazing place. It seems that many womyn find healing space there, for ptsd, body issues, survivor stuff, among other things. It seems that many womyn who can't find queer community at home find it at fest. It is a kind of space that many trans womyn need and many want to contribute to.

JoJo said...

I think transwomen should be included. Pet peeve: spelling it 'womyn'. Sorry, just my opinion.

blondie said...

i'm w/ you, would have enjoyed it back in the day. it seems out of place in today's world.

thene said...

I don't, ever, get it. I don't think there's anything honourable or meaningful about being a cisgendered woman - fortunate, yes, but all the stuff these people try to use to reify the 'wbw lived experience' is pure bullshit. Periods, really? They're as banal as shitting. They're also easily preventable - at one point, I didn't have them for five years - and I tend to assume that in the future most women will choose not to have them. (And then where will the TERFs be!)

I often suspect that the reason feminism tends to stumble and splinter is because womanhood actually isn't any kind of unifying experience, and women are not any kind of distinct category of people. Trying to form a central narrative around blood and babies doesn't work any more. Trying to form a central narrative around oppression doesn't even work any more - often because the people reciting said narratives are from that academic bubble that allows them to have no idea what most women's lives are like. It will always remain true that there are much greater variations within any group than between two groups, and this is never more apparent than when you are trying to pretend that over half the human race share some kind of profound distinction that you can draw a bright shiny line around (and then erect KEEP OUT signs and patrol with AKs, right?)

I do not wish to assimilate with Victoria Brownworth. I do not share a distinct identity with Lisa Vogel. They can both fuck off.

Charlotte said...

I think the tension between feminists and the trans community is indicative of a problem of the feminist movement in general. I feel that, in protesting the traditional gender roles placed upon women, feminists effectively just defined a new set of gender roles as the "ideal." As such, anything outside of the new "ideal" gender roles is viewed as damaging to the feminist cause.

What feminists should be focused on is rejecting any definition of "ideal" gender roles, male or female. We need to recognize that gender identity is not a factor of binary opposites, but part of a sliding scale with much, much gray area. Grasping that concept would help further the standard of living for not only the transgendered folks among us, but also for many cisgendered women who have felt alienated by the feminist movement.

Anonymous said...

Hadn't heard about that Brownwirth situation. I am as shocked as you are.

It was feminists who taught me what 'sexual assault' really -is- and yet they don't seem to see it in this case. Or don't care?

lezzy said...

saw on twiiter. didnt know details of mich fest herstory.

yr linx dont explain if trans = surgery .

icy it would b crazy 4 a bunch of gay girls 2c dick.

might b 1st time we ever did !

u dont go 2 all-grl event 2c dick.

i sure dont !

D. said...

This has been going on since the '70s.

There is something in the human psyche that needs to demonize somebody, anybody. I prefer to exercise that on people who actually hate me.

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Conseglieri said...

I am SO glad Toshiba piped up on this issue!

Hell, I don't understand it at all, but I suppose that's pretty natural as a straight male. I did think the point that women don't have a universal experience is important, and also true for men. I don't identify much with guys who are into military stuff, especially those who were soldiers themselves. There's an assumption that most guys are comfortable with all things military, but as with women, there really aren't any universal experiences which are not banal.

bryce said...

where are all the mean girls from last 'trans outrage' thread? i guess they got their yayas out so its over.
i wouldnt take em seriously if this is how quickly they lose interst in the subject.

great post, d. xoxo

Blue Heron said...

I admit to being uncomfortable with the whole issue. Honestly. I have a trans acquaintance that I have known for decades and we have had a lot of animosity between us. An interesting thing has happened in the last year. Since I consciously stopped relating to S___ as a man and just tried to reinforce her identity as a women, things have gotten much easier. Shitty guy but sweet girl. While chromosomes may not lie, science has found that there is much more middle ground than once was assumed.

Ursula Wisemoon said...


Bringing forth life and the process connected to that is not "as banal as shitting." The blood we shed can and does become the bloodstream of another human. Some of us believe this process ties us inexorably to the earth in a significant way men aren't and can't ever be. If you've never given birth, you might not appreciate this. However even though you say this means nothing menstruation and childbirth has meaning in many spiritual traditions especially earth and pagan traditions. All religions have had rituals surrounding menstruation. When Z Budapest tried to conduct ritual honoring women's connection to the moon (menstruation) she was viciously attacked by transwomen who said this *ancient* ritual was anti trans.

They seek to wipe out radical feminists like Z Budapest who actually honor tradition and what that means: women are capable of giving birth. If you don't have a uterus then this ritual wasn't about you and not your business. But transwomen had to make it all about them. Three words "genetic women only" was all it took for the attack. Everything must always be ABOUT THEM. That's the legacy of their socialization that you say doesn't exist. I don't see transmen demanding to join all-male environments in this same way. Why? Because their socialization as women teaches them to respect private self determined space.

I approve of full rights for trans persons. But transwomen just can't help their socialization as bullies and feeling they have a *right* to everything that belongs to women. They want to colonize and occupy every single space of ours as men have always done - which means that our spaces have now gone underground by invitation only.
They still work harder than the CIA to find the locations of our private spaces, such as Radfem2013 and Radfeme Rise Up! They seek colonizing or punishing. Is this behavior of feminists raised as women? Transmen haven't agitated in similar situations and don't demand gay men let them in their private spaces. I think they know they'd be laughed at demanding to attend blowjob parties with no dicks. No, its women spaces that they demand, since women have always belonged to men even before we belonged to ourselves. They grew up with this guarantee and they expect it.

Let the transwomen intimidate the obedient ones and take over common spaces while us menstruating bio women continue doing our spiritual work. Yes Marja is correct -there is much healing that goes on in these spaces but this healing depends on safety. And while we are being spied on, followed, threatened (and even Daisy was threatened in this thread) then we can't do this work. Trans women are deliberately trying to harm us and render this healing space impossible. Why do they do this? Ask them - don't ask us.


You continue seeking approval of trans women even after they threaten you. We've spent much time in dialog and you're respectful of self determination and even have black nationalist lawyers on your radio show and yet you "don't get" the Lisa Vogel statement. She's saying the exact same thing the black nationalist lawyer on your show was saying. You understood *her* fine but you somehow don't "get" Lisa.

I call bullshit.

thene said...

Ursula Wisemoon:

a) I am a pagan,
b) Menstruation has no connection to the moon or to lunar cycles. You do know that, right? That that's a demonstrable fact?
c) Shit has a spiritual meaning in Taoism, which is one of the traditions I respect. Banality is not the opposite of spirituality.

The great thing about spirituality is that no one else has to accept the truth of your beliefs. At the time of the event you're referring to, Dw3t-Hthr (who I believe was there) wrote a great article about how much drama would have been averted if they'd just say 'this is a menstrual ritual', because then not only trans women but also all of us "genetic women" pagans who have no feeling for menstrual symbolism would have known to stay away. Assuming all pagans who bleed must connect the bleeding to their paganism and would naturally feel included at a ritual for "genetic women" is just same-old religious gender-essentialism.

You do know that the 'respect people's space!' argument makes you sound like a Southern segregationist, right? And if trans women are such a threat to your safety, why do they have the highest murder rate of any demographic? Why are they so much more likely to get assaulted, abused, raped or killed than you? If you cared about women's safety you'd be welcoming the most vulnerable community of women and do what you could to include them in your spiritual healing.

You also clearly need to pay more attention to the activist work of trans men, fwiw.

marjaerwin said...

Ursula Wisemoon,

If you find personal meaning in menstruation, I have nothing against that, but if you assert universal meanings, I feel othered. And when people use menstruation to try to define who is or is not a womon, it can exclude and hurt some womyn who don't have menstrual cycles, and some womyn who have difficult/painful cycles, and some womyn who have faced pathologization of their cycles, not to mention that it must be really awkward for some men with cycles.

Edith Pilkington said...

I have never obsessed over MichFest. I feel betrayed when I see some of the names on the schedule, however. Why don't more speak out? At least The Indigo Girls have. I don't think MichFest is a place for the "trans community". I think it should be strictly a place for women. I would say "women identified" people but I don't know what that means.

I understand why Lisa Vogel defines woman the way she does but I think she's wrong. I know many Americans who did not grow up with an "American experience" but different ethnic experiences who are now unquestionably American even if some would disagree.

While I think Lisa Vogel's definition is far too rigid in light of what I have come to know, I think other rigid definitions of who is and who isn't a woman would be just as problematic in deciding who should be excluded so the Festival remains exclusively reserved for women.

I have always tried to avoid places where I am unwelcome. I don't like confrontation. I am of the mind that if someone tells you some place is heaven but your dog is not allowed in they're lying and whatever place they're speaking is probably hell, even if it is only a personal one.

Anonymous said...

thene, what about threats from trans women? do you support these? sounds like it.

what about their unbalanced obsession w/small, inconsequential group of washed-up 'feminists'? what about the obsession w/locating their conferences that wisemoon mentioned? do you want political conferences halted if you don't agree with what they say?

i'd like to know too, but i see the self appointed 'allies' won't be talking about any of that.

until this bullying is adequately addressed, you can expect women/lesbians to quietly (or noisily) exclude them. if they want to be women, they should act like women, not like angry frat boys. (btw, women don't murder trans people, men do.)

if you don't care about michfest, then you're the one who can fuck off. you admit you don't even care. i don't want to attend either, never have, so i don't get what all the fighting is about. most of these trans women and allies like you wouldn't attend even if they could.

at least marja admits she'd actually like to attend.

Anonymous said...

for details: Imitation, Infiltration, and Invasion at Radfem Rise Up! 2013

Anonymous said...

to sum up ~ 200 emails, paid entrance fees, infiltrators, fake websites, a facebook page inviting 961 protesters. all this energy spent on silencing a conference that a total of (wait for it) *14* radfems and a 10 month old baby attended.


DGR said...

Indeed, Anon. Thank you for calling my attention to this post and this thread.

Thene, do you agree that violently confronting those who dare to sell books you don't agree with is acceptable behaviour?

There are books insulting women everywhere. Most of the world's literature in fact. Yet, women never attack booksellers. Why not?
Because nobody gives a shit about misogyny, least of all trans women. As Ursula stated, it's all about them. Otherwise, why don't they take on Barnes & Noble and the classics section? List of misogynist books available upon request, in case you don't know what they are. We can start with the Holy Bible and the Koran. As a pagan, that should be easy for you to do.

I expect you to organize a group of your trans buds to go over there with you and destroy them. Unless you're full of shit, of course.

Anonymous said...

this is why i never write about trans* stuff @my blog. turns into clusterfuck everytime. just ignore them & hope they go away. & they will after about a decade of being "women" - they'll see how much it sucks. then they'll switch back en masse which is already starting out here on west coast.

it's the real reason they hedge their bets & don't get surgery. they can avoid point of no return.

then we'll be hearing all about their detransitioning & how bad it is. then we'll get bitched out for not trying to stop them from messing up their bodies with hormones in the first place.

everything is feminist's fault, you know.

marjaerwin said...

Yep. Any year now, I'll realize what a horrible mistake I've made...

marjaerwin said...

Yesterday, I saw an insightful quote from Adrienne Rich:

"When those who have the power to name and to socially construct reality choose not to see your or hear you... when someone with the authority of a teacher, say, describes the world and you are not in it, there is a moment of psychic disequilibrium, as if you looked in the mirror and saw nothing. It takes some strength of soul—and not just individual strength but collective understanding—to resist this void, this non-being, into which you are thrust, and to stand up, demanding to be seen and heard."

Adrienne Rich, who helped write The Transsexual Empire...

I only wish she had applied this wisdom to that work.

We are dealing with a constructed cis-reality which renders our identities and our experiences unspeakable. It lacks the words we need, so we use metaphors, and others tear us down for their interpretation of our metaphors. It subjects us to violence for who we are. I was beaten unconscious for being trans and autistic in my teens, pre-transition.

It might perhaps be better to have people holding signs and pamphlets by the DGR table. But not everyone could do that alone or for any length of time, not everyone could handle the transphobia and ableism in radical environmentalist circles, and not everyone could speak clearly under the circumstances.

marjaerwin said...

P.S. I don't kno the people involved, I mean "not everyone could" as in "not everyone would be able to."

DaisyDeadhead said...

Marja, thank you for talking to me about these comments privately, and your feelings about them. It means a lot to me. I really do believe the majority of radical feminists are deeply "unsettled" by these issues but do not wish to actually oppress or harm trans people. Most do what Anon said, which is to try to ignore them and hope they go away. (I think that is exactly what Lisa Vogel's statement actually says!) I am pointedly trying NOT to do that, but it doesn't make me too popular either. I think "teach the controversy" is the way to go, in this instance.

Aside: Adrienne Rich was up the Dalyite-faction's ass for awhile (as you mention), but she jumped ship over porn, of all things. I think as a poet, she realized it was possible her own work might be attacked under any kind of restrictive pornography laws.

Too bad she only understood things as they directly applied to her and her life. :(

General announcement:

As for this thread, I have deliberately not intervened and want everyone to have their say, as long as they keep their mouths off ME. (this is because *I* get angry when people insult me, and then I lose it, not because I am especially sacrosanct or anything) But if they have criticisms or contributions to what I have written and present them respectfully, I am listening and willing to dialogue also.

I AM somewhat ticked off that the indignant hell-raisers who enthusiastically attacked me in the last thread (and grandstanded on Feministe over my awfulness) have not shown up for this one, but I guess that is standard operating procedure. It is so much easier to fulminate, preen and strut your self-righteousness, than it is to offer nuanced criticism and share one's feelings and fears, as Marja has done here.

Marja, again, thank you for your contribution. Your comments sum up what I wanted this thread to be.

Anonymous said...


Willemina said...

I value my sanity too much to dive in to all this again, but it's rather disingenuous to call out the commentariat of another blog for not immediately responding to a post on a different blog. I imagine the link on the Self-Promotion Sunday thread will have a predictably splashy result in light of the call outs. ¡Toro aquí!

DaisyDeadhead said...

Wilhemina, not sure I follow you. I'm not "calling out" but simply noticing and reporting. Social media is part of most stories these days, and has most assuredly been part of this one, too.

I am increasingly worried that there is no more discussion allowed within feminism and/or the left anymore, without the self-righteous 'call-outs'... this version of name-calling has taken the place of real conversation and debate. I am increasingly worried about the nasty (even violent) consequences of simply approaching certain topics in (what is currently viewed as) an unpopular way. As an older woman in the South, my language is often regarded as offensive, even if what I intend is reconciliation. THIS has been what is most confusing and upsetting to me, and I think it is also why those of us in this brawl over DECADES have stopped trying to deal with it: fear of the ubiquitous 'call outs'.

This pernicious dynamic also keeps people away from important discussions out of fear, that they will not be able to phrase their concerns in acceptable terminology that will keep them safe from attacks. The people being kept away are often people like me: older, uneducated, uncool... and I think our opinions matter too.

If someone is exercised to the point that all commments of a certain type are seen as 'triggering' -- then it needs to be announced on the thread (as I just did on my George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin thread), that certain views will be dealt with far more harshly than others.

That, to me, is fair enough and serves notice ahead of time.

I left a trigger warning on the Feministe link. If that's not good enough, dunno what is. (sigh)

Wilhemina, got any comments on Michfest? Or just some random shaming for showing my white trash manners?

Mama Moretti said...

d, callouts don't have *anything* to do with the subject - whatever it is. it's just a way to feel good about themselves. i'm sick of it - boring.

About Michfest : if nudity wasn't so 'central' to Fest, would this be an issue? like lezzy was saying, is this all about how somebody might catch sight of a penis? so what if they did? i saw little penises during my child care shift so not a big deal to me.

i guess since being naked is such a big deal at Fest, no way to make any 'stay clothed' rules - they'd only be ignored. personally, as u know, i didn't like all the nudity. i felt almost coerced to get naked myself - and there's *no way*.

i didn't go back again because i'm not comfortable w/thousands of naked peeps, male or female.

I was never rainbow family or deadhead!

Fat Amelia Bedelia said...

nobody will say it, but the majority of lesbians, like lezzy, don't really consider trans* women to be women. that was what the whole cotton ceiling memewas about. lesbians won't sleep with them.

there's your proof.

lisa vogel is reflecting the values of her community, not imposing them top down by fiat.

Anonymous said...

@Feministe you wrote you hadn't "censored" any comments, so let me give you one that you will "censor" ok?


Censor that, cissexist bitch.

Sally said...

Victoria Brownworth sounds like a pervert disguised as a radical feminist.

bryce said...

need to get bumper sticker -TRIGGER WARNING!!!!!! & put on keyboards b4 peeps even log in

thats the only way 2b safe

blondie said...

I had to look up cissexist.

Now I'm going to work it into conversation so everybody will know how aware and avantgard I am.

Camp Trans said...

Vogel's statement is transphobic and direct. I don't get where you think it's "don't ask, don't tell" unless you mean her assertion that her "intention has always been coupled with the radical commitment to never question any womon's gender."

I don't believe that for a minute.

You didn't mention Camp Trans at all in your post. Please link us here.

We are the egalitarian alternative. Marja, we'd love to have you join us.

Anonymous said...

I AM somewhat ticked off that the indignant hell-raisers who enthusiastically attacked me in the last thread (and grandstanded on Feministe over my awfulness) have not shown up for this one,

What in the world makes you think that anyone at Feministe was aware of this thread until you mentioned it over there today? Do you really think that anyone there still reads your blog regularly after the last fiasco?

Anonymous said...

this is why i never write about trans* stuff @my blog. turns into clusterfuck everytime. just ignore them & hope they go away. & they will after about a decade of being "women" - they'll see how much it sucks. then they'll switch back en masse which is already starting out here on west coast.

This bears about as much resemblance to reality as most of what these kinds of people say. The fact is, trans women have been steadily transitioning for the last 40 years and more, and from everything I've read, the percentage who express regrets is something under 5%, and the percentage who actually "de-transition" is far less than that. Never mind that thousands do have genital surgery.

marjaerwin said...


I attended Camp Trans a few years ago, and should be on the mailing list. I hadn't heard that Camp Trans would be 'on' this year and unfortunately things will be really hectic here for the next two weeks. Also, some things, such as finding workshops for medical issues for intersex womyn, are going to be hard on either side of the road, but harder on the side with fewer people.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Anon: Do you really think that anyone there still reads your blog regularly after the last fiasco?

Dear New York, New York: You mean the removal of all of my guest-blogged posts in 2010, and nobody would tell me why? (FIASCO is a strong word, but I agree, that was rather extreme, wasn't it?)

No, I don't.

In fact, I was told that was the whole purpose of the purge--to formally announce that I am persona non grata/anathema. (Since nobody would give me an official reason for this Draconian measure, I was forced to rely on evil gossip.)

Not that you would have any direct knowledge of that or anything.

Anonymous said...

So you admit that you were just trolling people by claiming that you were annoyed at the fact that nobody from Feministe had commented here prior to today, and admit that you didn't seriously believe that anyone there even knew about this thread?

As for whatever happened in 2010, which you keep bringing up at every opportunity, I have no idea what you're talking about, and suggest that you write to Jill or one of the other moderators there. I didn't become a member of Feministe until sometime in 2011, and I'm certainly not a moderator in any event.

And neither I nor anyone else I know (trans woman or otherwise) would want to go to the MWMF. I certainly could go if I wanted to; however, I'm a Manhattanite born and bred, and haven't camped out since I was about 14. The bagels there -- if they have them -- are probably lousy. But it's always been for women, so if women want to go, they should. Take that as you wish.

bryce said...

inside baseball, d. not fair.

decipher last comment 4 us following along @home

( or from art bar game nite )

DaisyDeadhead said...

Anon, I thought you were Jill, my mistake.

Just trying to get a reply about the mass-deletion of my posts. (sigh) Maybe someday. (I have emailed many, many times. Obviously, no reply is forthcoming.) But this is the reason I avoid extended dialogues there.

Bryce, see above. I'd rather be at Art Bar game nite myself!

senchi said...

this is actually a pretty fair post.

daisy, u force ppl to think & they don't want to. seriously. u always piss people off bcuz they want ideology in little boxes - all tied up in a bow. u point out how 'convetional wisdom' haschanged over years. that upset ppl who think they have shit all figured out & nothing will evolve from right now.

that's y they put u on the radio.

not sure why ppl r angry over comments? y can't u control everyone's opinion? u bad girl.

they need to listen to yr show if they really want to rock - lol.

thx 4 friending me. can't wait to hear u today on trayvon.

3rd try - typos !

Anonymous said...

Donna, you aren't a moderator @Feministe? I thought you were.

So the moderators just habitually defer to you as if you are?

Anonymous said...

Donna, you aren't a moderator @Feministe? I thought you were.

So the moderators just habitually defer to you as if you are?

Very funny. If you're really familiar with Feministe, you know perfectly well that I'm not a moderator. (And wouldn't be one if I were asked to be, under any circumstances; life is too short.) And nobody "defers" to me. Like it or not, if people tend to agree with me, it's because they can see that what I say usually makes sense. And that I'm usually patient and willing to explain why I hold certain views, at least to people who don't already have their minds made up and haven't already been completely brainwashed by the Stalinists of the feminist world. Anti-trans nonsense gets deleted not because of me, but because that's the rule there, and has been since long before I began commenting.

Real Lesbian said...

haven't already been completely brainwashed by the Stalinists of the feminist world

Just the trans world.

Jesus Daisy, are you still sucking up to these tyrannies and trying to get them to like you? GIVE IT UP! You must sign off on every single line of their politics or else get savaged. Look at this ass kissing post of yours. You suck up and suck up and agree with them and still, one says fuck you and another is here rubbing it in that she got your post deleted from Feministe. Then s/he claims s/he is not a Stalinist! The tyranny comedy never fucking ends.

You will NEVER get their approval. You're a SECOND WAVE FEMINIST. You can defend Andrea Dworkin all you want, but look what happened there too. They started that whole Reddit thread about you. THAT IS ALL THEY DO : BULLY RADICAL FEMINISTS. They claim they just want the right pronouns etcetc but YOU do all that and it STILL isn't enough. NOTHING is good enough for people raised with male entitlement except women BOWING AND SCRAPING to them. When are you going to WAKE UP?

The Bob Jones people stalk you and the tyrannies JOIN RIGHT IN bullying instead of taking on the religious right. They'd rather fight feminists than the males in power.

Did you see this? :

Do you think radical feminists have EVER been allowed to write for something as influential as Salon? But the tyrannies are welcomed with open arms! They've gained far more political power than 14 women and a baby up in Toronto having a conference.

WAKE UP and stop writing this shit.

Giving radfems the benefit of the doubt or even allowing us to comment means you are THE ENEMY to the tyrannies. They will not rest until their view of reality is accepted by EVERYONE. No questioning of their actions is allowed either. If they bully women for selling books it must be because of "oppression" not because they've been raised to bully and don't know HOW ELSE TO FUCKING ACT.

Despite our differences in the past I think you are a strong feminist. I hate to see you cave to these assholes! STOP AGREEING WITH THEM! STOP PUTTING UP WITH IT!

I actualy preferred Christian Daisy to Buddhist Daisy. The Christian told trolls to fuck off. The Buddhist is all "whatever" and is too afraid to stand up to them.

So let me : Hey Anon who said "fuck you" go dilate your new surgically invented pussy or put on lipstick or something. STOP BULLYING WOMEN!

That's what you should have said.

DaisyDeadhead said...

RL, do you really think I'm afraid? Its my own temper I am afraid of. When I doubt I can hold it in, unlike before, I just don't say anything.

Like some old sexist once said, discretion is the better part of valor.

You might meditate (haha) on that phrase yourself.

When I walk away from anger and meditate on it awhile, I come back and it looks different to me. For instance, on first reading, your comment simply seemed angry. Now I look at it, and it seems, well, deranged. Like Cathy Brennan. All out of proportion.

Why do they piss you off SO much? And yes, I have asked the same questions of trans people too. Those comments in that Salon thread are... damn!

Unbalanced, is a nice way to put it.

As I said in the post, I just don't get it.

And no, I didn't get it as a Christian either.

marjaerwin said...

I for one am open to criticism of trans theory, but I am sick and tired of accusations that we are liars, that we are deluded, that we do not exist, such as "all [trans womyn] fit into these two types" or "no [trans womyn] are intersex," or insults, such as "tyrannies"or "MtcFs."

Anonymous said...

Real Lesbian,


I think you ARE Cathy Brennan.

"Real Lesbian" is something she says all the time.

Anonymous said...

another is here rubbing it in that she got your post deleted from Feministe.

What? I haven't "gotten" anything Daisy has written deleted from Feministe. Somebody has reading comprehension issues. And an extremely tenuous connection with reality. (What a surprise.) In other words, maybe it is Ms. Brennan. Or one of her fellow members of the current anti-trans Politburo.

Anonymous said...

I went to Michigan for many years, also "back in the day" It was my tribe, and the most empowering space I ever was in, and I would not be who I am today without it.

When my first child was a boy, I stopped going. I didn't put my kids in hours of childcare for any reason, and consider myself fortunate that I didn't have to.

This year, I'm going back & taking my two daughters. I can't wait. And I'm not at all concerned about the pissy complaints from self-described "trans-activists". There are real world challenges, and if not going to a weeklong music festival in the hinterlands is your big problem, count your blessings. My daughters DESERVE an opportunity to spend time without a penis in the room... and without the input of people who, rightly or wrongly, got the socialization & some of the goodies of being identified as male. Patriarchy already makes a lot of noise in women's heads... there are darn few places where women, together, can try to evaluate that and see how it works for them.

I didn't think Lisa's statement was ambiguous, at all. She said, "Respect these boundaries." If that was done, transwomen (and gender non-comforming women) would spend LESS time being othered but because respecting the boundaries of women isn't as much fun as "putting something over" on so-called 'cis' people it creates a climate of distrust, which no one needs


Anonymous said...

Donna/Anon/whoever you are:

people are detransitioning almost as fast as they are transitioning.

maybe you're too busy looking in the mirror and admiring your new fake boobs to notice it?