Friday, September 3, 2010

Fat chance!

I am persona non grata over at FEMINISTE these days, which is probably a good thing. After reading THIS THREAD, I once again wondered what planet I was on.

What the hell happened to feminism? Has it become all about not hurting people's feelings? No wonder we are stuck with the likes of Nikki Haley and Sarah Palin.

Back in the day, feminism SPECIALIZED in hurting feelings. If you came away from a feminist meeting and your feelings weren't hurt, by God, you hadn't been paying attention! And now, lots of boo-hooing every time someone dares to speak openly and offers a controversial position. Speaking openly is OPPRESSING people, all by itself. Just by posting your opinion on a blog, you are OPPRESSING PEOPLE, didya know that?

Yes, it's our old friends, the FAT ACCEPTANCE MOVEMENT, dictating how we should feel wonderful about our copious, fleshy mounds of fat: FEEL GOOD, GODDAMYA!!! And if you don't, they are gonna FLAME YOU and BLOGSWARM you and GANG-PILE YOU, until you holler uncle... (or AUNT in this case, since we are discussing feminism).

I was trolled and belittled by the Fat Patrol in this thread, and subsequently very dramatically de-linked by a whole bunch of "feminists" in short order (that old phrase "herd of independent minds" just popped into my head, for some reason). So, I guess I can say whatever I like now.

And what I think is: these people are self-important, narcissistic bullies. Even on a thread in which I talk about my own pain, and my accompanying fear that I won't be able to WORK because of knee-pain (you know, my livelihood? The way I actually earn a living?!) --I was attacked for daring to say that. (Luckily, most of these "feminists" don't actually do much political activism in real life; besides the mass-tantrum/de-linking, there haven't been many repercussions, as there might be if they actually DID something.)

I know, you are thinking, wait, I thought feminism was about self-accceptance? And becoming capable and strong and alla that good stuff? Ha! You don't know jack. Online feminism of the blogular variety is increasingly all about belly-aching and declaring how "triggered" you are by every damn thing in the world.

The post, by a writer named Monica, titled "Fat and Health"--which was a good title, I thought--was attacked over and over for daring to reference the BMI (Body Mass Index). As readers here know, I was initially alarmed by my own weight when I cracked the "obese" category at long last, and my BMI shot up past the 30-mark. For me, the BMI was a wake-up call, and I found it helpful. No, it doesn't explain everything about a person. I do hard work, can lift more weight than many guys (she bragged) and I am sure my BMI is higher than the average woman my age, since I have muscle... the women in my family always looked like strapping farmhands with big bones and broad shoulders (evolutionarily chosen to pull plows, one assumes), rather than petite ladies-of-leisure. I have no illusions that I could ever look like a model, or even a "thin" person... but my knees must hold me up, since I intend to work from now on in my chosen field. My ability to work and my livelihood, like most working-class people, is directly connected to my health and fitness. And like most working-class people, I have NO CHOICE... although it sounds like many of these women in this thread DO have a choice. Apparently, fat doesn't interfere in their work and it's of no immediate consequence in their lives. It is something to be celebrated, period. My question: Do you work for a living? Do you do physical work, as most of us in the world must? Because if you don't, I guess whether your knees collapse and can't sustain you for 8 hours, is of no importance.

But you know, I don't like the desk-workers of the world telling me what my priorities must be. (To the desk-denizens: What if I told you carpal-tunnel syndrome is simply nothing to worry about? Would you resent my arrogance in making such a pronouncement?) Do you understand that the rest of us must work, in that case? Why do you want us to work in pain? Just for the sake of political correctness?

I didn't think Monica's post was fat-shaming and fat-hating, but then, I didn't think my post was either. I wanted to give Monica a heads-up: Hey, I wasn't even allowed to write about my OWN obesity without the Fat Acceptance Police trying to run me out of Blogdonia, so I know what they're gonna do to you, girlfriend.

A prize quote from the comments:

I hate this post. I hate you for writing it. I pretty strongly hate feministe for posting it.

I hate most of all the way it tempts us fatties into to going down a self-destructive path of good fattie/bad fattie, and one that is also destructive to other fat people. What I ate today is none of your business...
Actually, what you ate IS my business, since I subsidized it through farm subsidies, and it was probably packaged in a detrimental way to hurt the planet. (Likewise, what I eat is also your business.)

Tangential issue: If you ate animals, it is also my business, since I care about the animals and seek to make it harder and more expensive for you to eat animals, satisfying your palate with cruelty and pain. Meat-eating is also destroying the planet. That makes food everyone's business, since we all live here.

It is also my business how you fuel your car and how you get from one place to another. It is my business how you treat your kids, since they will grow up and impact the world *I* live in. We don't live in a vacuum, although capitalism (through worship of 'privacy' and 'brands') likes to continually assure us that we do, so they can sell us more and more stuff that we won't share with the people we don't know living right next door to us.

But even more than that... notice the "I hate you for writing it"--there is no polite, civil disagreement in Feminist Blogdonia these days. Everything has been ratcheted up a notch. Disagreement is now hate. At the time we can least afford it.

More prize quotes:
what the fuck is this post

what the fuck are your responses to people’s legitimate anger about the legitimately douchey and wrong things you said in this post
...
SO WHAT if some fat people are unhealthy.

SO WHAT if science could prove (with actual solid proof here, not just vague anecdotal evidence and wishful thinking) that being fat correlates directly with unhealthiness.

So what if one given fat person is fat because of “too many donuts” or “not enough exercise.” So what if they then have to use a stroller or wheelchair or mobility aids, or develop health problems or have to stay at the hospital.

It’s ok to be unhealthy.

It’s ok to be disabled. Because, underlying all those criticisms about fat, is also an underlying criticism about disability, particularly when it’s being perceived as a choice.
Oh, bullshit.

Fat, by itself, is not a disability. Indeed, fat can CAUSE disability, which is an issue for those of us who have to work; as we see, this person obviously doesn't. (And if you do work for a living, can I ask how your co-workers will feel when they have to carry your workload while you are hospitalized, et. al.? Will you be interfering with their days off, desired shifts, vacations and suchlike? Of course you will. And do you care about that?)

In case you didn't know, there is a new sheriff in town, and he ain't particularly nice. (You know the sheriff has got his problems too/And he will surely take them out on you) [1] Your health care is going to be paid for by me, and a bunch more people lots more intolerant than me. And yeah, the masses of people paying for government-run health care might just disagree with you a wee bit, if they/we are the ones paying for your hospital stay brought on by "too many donuts"... know what I'm saying? See reference to privacy and capitalism, above. You don't live in a vacuum. Your choices directly impact me and mine impact yours. Otherwise, why vote, why recycle, why bother?

More winning comments:
Fuck you, Monica. Fuck your arrogant tone and FUCK your dismissive attitude.
Gets right to the point!

All these college kids, and it seems not a single one learned to debate properly, reduced to redneck comments like FUCK YOU. Well, at least I didn't waste a half-million dollars and come out more stupid than when I went in...for which small mercies I am grateful.
who the fuck are you that I need to defend my size, my eating habits, and my exercise regiments to, regardless of how healthy or unhealthy they may be.
She'll gobble up as many animals as she pleases, thanks! (What's really bizarre is how many of these comments claim to BE FROM vegans and vegetarians, using the same arguments the carnivores routinely use: My food choices are my business.)

And finally:
Wow, never have I seen such disrespect towards a guest blogger- especially after the Feministe editors were very specific in advance that diverse perspectives would be offered.
Yeah.

This is the way it is on the Left right now, the Glenn Becking of America. We are eating our own; we are devouring the coalition whole.

As I said in this post, it will reach a fever pitch, culminating in the ousting of Obama for a hard-core conservative, and the Left will be "in exile" for about a year, maybe two. I hope it isn't any longer, or that could mean Major Trouble.

This isn't the time to say "fuck you" to each other, you ignorant prats.

But I guess you'll find that out soon enough, the hard way... and the way I had to learn, also.


...

[1] Warren Zevon, Mohammed's Radio

[2] Don't forget Greta Christina: Open Letter to the Fat Positive Movement.

35 comments:

Meghan said...

Exactly. I wrote something similar after being shocked and disgusted by these commenters: http://www.feminisms.org/816/when-commenters-attack/

I was recently attacked by Cara over at the Curvature along with about 20 commenters - although in this case I was not made aware of the attack as the blogger/commenters lacked the integrity even to comment directly to my blog, allowing me to respond - simply for daring to have a different opinion. These folks are bullies, and I don't like it. Thanks for this post.
Meghan

DaisyDeadhead said...

Meghan, yeah! I've noticed the "blind item" isn't just for gossip columnists anymore. I recently reacted negatively to a similar attack-post on another blog, only to be told "We weren't talking about you!"--Well, show some guts and link the offender, then.

Another difference between feminism now and back-in-the-day: we attacked passive/aggression as fundamentally anti-feminist and patriarchal brainwashing. ;)

JoJo said...

Yikes! Daisy, go to your happy place! Breathe, breathe... ;p

Well since my newly found classmates on Facebook are hinting that they want me to go to our 30th class reunion, in 2012, I better get crackin on the weight loss attempt, although it's already been difficult for me b/c of my slow metabolism. And as I've commented b/f, i just LOATHE exercise!

DaisyDeadhead said...

Jojo, if nothing hurts, and your cholesterol, glucose, blood pressure, thyroid, etc is okay, I wouldn't bother! :D

Unfortunately, mine just wasn't.

JoJo said...

Actually EVERYTHING hurts. I have a torn right rotator cuff and my entire back and neck always hurts. My arms go dead at night. But I think that's a nerve impingement more than weight-related. I do have bad knees and hips, which also ache, but that's been ongoing since childhood (I have never been able to run w/o ending up in a crumpled heap).

I see the pictures of my classmates and they all look so fantastic. I cannot show up at my reunion all fat.

SnowdropExplodes said...

Much applause!

I generally consider myself to be "fat-positive", and accepting myself as the body shape I am was a big step in improving my overall mental health.

However, there are real physical effects that being heavily overweight can have; my own most noticeable example is that I am now permanently on medication for gout, and usually find that ordinary walking is a lot easier with a stick than without (though most days I can manage even quite vigorous exercise without it). Some people seem to think that acknowledging that there are consequences for certain actions constitutes a moral judgement about those actions. (Thus, saying "being fat can lead to gout" is instead interpreted as "you must be a bad person for not wanting to avoid gout!" or even "gout is a punishment for being fat".)

I think some people get upset when physical and physiological reality doesn't conform to their pet social theories. And that's when you get these abusive comments.

thene said...

I guess this is what happens when some people establish an orthodoxy and some other people overstep it...no one stops to explain, there's no 'hey, waitaminute', it's all SHUNNNN!

I hate the passagg thing too - I get way too much of it at my workplace. I feel like there's two sides of the same coin here - people don't like the feeling of human conflict, so they go start shit behind people's back rather than talking like accountable adults who respect each other - and people don't like the feeling of human conflict so if someone makes an argument that's outside their comfort zone they stop seeing that person as human, and attack.

I don't seek to shame anyone of any weight but I do want to be able to discuss the societal changes that have made America, on average, weigh more than it used to, and weigh more than other developed nations, because those changes are interesting and relevant. The things you spoke of - the farm subsidies you pay, the meat I eat, the fuel we put in our cars - affect the bodies of all America-dwellers regardless of BMI. We ought to all be able to discuss these things without getting told it's 'none of your business'. Is it possible, as Monica said, to use weight as a way to assess these effects that America has on us? It's a limited thing to talk about - but that hasn't stopped the diet industry, or the First Lady, or the entire media. Should it stop us?

And god yes, it's so much about the worship of capitalism - and the invisible hand of corporate welfare! I feel like we're 'supposed' to see our weight as a natural fact to be accepted without discussion, like our sexuality or our dis/ability, rather than as something that America has decided for us. If you can't talk about your own weight in feminist circles - it sounds like we're right back in a place where we can't talk about our bodies, only 'accept' what is being done to them.

April said...

I love this post. I feel much of the same way as you do:

Online feminism of the blogular variety is increasingly all about belly-aching and declaring how "triggered" you are by every damn thing in the world.

and

We don't live in a vacuum, although capitalism (through worship of 'privacy' and 'brands') likes to continually assure us that we do, so they can sell us more and more stuff that we won't share with the people we don't know living right next door to us.

It's astonishing how socialist the feminist blogosphere is when discussing how we are all oppressed (or too privileged to speak), but how very capitalist when the conversation turns to discussing even one iota of personal responsibility or how our choices affect others.

white rabbit said...

Oh dear, I just checked my BMI. It says I am overweight but not obese. But I eat lots of fruit, very little red meat and have smallish portions. Boohoo! I blame the beer...

Seriously, if being overweight can cause type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, joint pain, fertility problems, breathlessness, osteoarthritis and some cancers isn't it a good idea to try and do something about it rather than bigging up one's problematic condition? (speaking as a mere man)

Danny said...

Its a damn shame that some of the supposed folks that want equality for everyone are so quick to come down on anyone that doesn't fall in line with them.

Daisy when feminists throw their hands up in confusion wondering why people aren't rushing to join them and thinking that the image of the hateful feminist is complete fiction I think of posts and moments like this and smile.

Just to clarify "blind item" is the term for writing a post about something but then refusing to link to it?

Blue Heron said...

As a rather heavy guy who mostly doesn't give a shit, I can't say I really understand where you are coming from here?

You really think that what I eat is your business because of farm subsidies?

Maybe I don't understand you as well as I think I do but I don't think that you are serious in this regard. Or should I say I hope not.

Most of us have one sort of gun or another pointed at our own head. I like to think that it is my choice to pull that trigger.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Danny, gossip columnists (I used to write one) run "blind items" when they don't want to be sued and/or take full responsibility for rumors they want to report, i.e. "Which brown-haired, popular young male vegetarian TV star likes both boys and girls?" (I just made that up, I dunno if there is one or not.)

Example, here in which I am about 95% sure David Brooks was referring to Lindsay Graham.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Mr Blue Heron, I think everything we do is everyone's business, meaning, everything we do affects everyone else.

I do think the existence of farm subsidies, in particular, brought us a huge glut of cheap corn on the market. And to solve the low-profit-problem of the surplus, bingo, High Fructose Corn Syrup was born. This fabricated-in-a-lab sweetener is even cheaper than sugar, and it makes everything taste fabulous. It is also (IMHO) highly addictive and is making everyone fat and diabetic.

And that's what I meant.

I do believe that the food-engineers use addictive substances (remember that Lays potato chip slogan of our youth: "Betcha can't eat just one"? They were RIGHT, weren't they?) to get us hooked, just like drug dealers. It's important (profitable) to keep us hooked. And that is what we all need to be talking about when we discuss fat. We are being EXPLOITED and the food we are eating isn't even real food, but we seem unable to change and unable to stop (definition of addiction).

Certainly, I understand not giving a shit, since for a long time, I didn't either. But after observing people's food choices and buying habits (and talking to them at length about them) up close and personal for many years now, I now care passionately.

Hope that all made sense. I'm exhausted!

genderbitch said...

Generally when I hear, "oh gosh, everyone is so mean for my different opinion and we should be united together and not infight"

All I can think of is the Progressive movement's White, Cisgender, Abled, Northern USAian, mid 20s/30s Menz whining about people not being cool with them expressing cissexist, ableist, Anti South, racist, sexist and ageist views and using the exact same line "for the good of Progressivism".

Makes that line cause a bitter taste in my mouth, Meghan, Daisy. Just saying.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Genderbitch, being *civil* has nothing to do with what you have said here. As I said on Meghan's blog, I'm 100% ready to argue the point *politely* at any time. And just like the uncivil participants on the Feministe thread, you seem unable and unwilling to do that. (I'm also working on a blog post, but will probably take a while since my work schedule this week is somewhat heavy.)

Whether someone is white and cis and abled and blah blah blah (insert politically correct laundry list of trendy, lefty-approved identity-markers here) ? How does that affect their ability to argue with me here? Huh?

And note: You have presented NO arguments here.

If you can calmly and logically present something besides self-evident political correctness, i.e. "Yea Fat!" -- please, do so. Otherwise, you just prove my point.

I see from your photo on your website that you are quite obviously thin too, so I doubt you have much direct experience or knowledge about the subject of fat anyway. But as always, I'm here if you want to discuss the actual topic.

genderbitch said...

@Daisy: I'm pretty sure you're the one who brought up liberal unity and civility here, not me.

I just responded.

Mostly to point out that you have (in the past) hated it when people pull bad stuff on you and then try to silence your protests under the reasoning of liberal unity. Northern Liberals do it to you all the time. You're doing it now. I hope that's clearer now.

I don't currently have an opinion on the Fat Acceptance movement as I'm still looking into it.

And I'm being nicer here than I was with Meghan because I know you and I like you. Meghan is pretty well known around these parts for having entrenched bigotry and an inclination to avoid all accountability. I still feel like there's still hope for you. Please don't prove me wrong.

genderbitch said...

Oh, I forgot to mention.

I used to be fat. I am no longer fat anymore. So while I grasp what being fat can be like, I also was fat during a time when I was completely unaware of the FA movement. So I am not yet sure that they help or hinder things for fat people. Hence why I'm not expressing an opinion on it.

Also, one can be part of a group and still be prejudiced. I used to be transphobic. Just cuz you're fat doesn't mean you're not fatphobic.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Yes, I brought up civility, now, you wanna civilly argue about fat acceptance or not?

try to silence your protests under the reasoning of liberal unity

EXCUSE ME?

How is ASKING for reasoned arguments "silencing"? I am asking for an UNsilencing, actually, since I believe the "fuck yous" and political correctness are the real silencers and totally inhibit actual debate.

The Feministe thread was shut down without any actual arguments about the fat acceptance movement being presented, it was all "read Shapely Prose, you asshole!"--people should be able to make their arguments without ordering people all over the net to study up. If the Fat Acceptance movement can't be summed up in a post on a thread, then it ain't worth much, except, as I said, "Yea Fat!"--which seems to be the whole bottom line. More capitalist privacy arguments, I can eat what I want, etc. Heard that, got anything else?

And why can't people argue without the "fuck yous"--how is "fuck you" increasing any understanding of the issues? (Are you saying the only way they/you can argue is to be openly nasty?)

I think the Fat Acceptance movement is helping to KILL people (see "Kathy" in sidebar), so yes, I have something of an attitude also. But its not from privilege, but from hard-won experience and deeply-felt grief.

genderbitch said...

"I think the Fat Acceptance movement is helping to KILL people (see "Kathy" in sidebar), so yes, I have something of an attitude also."

So it's cool for you to be a bitch but it's not cool for me to be a bitch. Cool. Hypocrisy is in now.

"But its not from privilege, but from hard-won experience and deeply-felt grief."

No, it's from ignorance.

Let's talk about what the FA movement does. It works to reduce the hatred, mistreatment and dehumanization against fat people. So the donut jokes, the assuming fat comes from eating, the assuming that fat is automatically unhealthy, the treating fat people as ugly, nasty or otherwise the butt of jokes everywhere, etc.

FA is about removing oppression in society of fat people, like any other oppression fighting movement.

It isn't "yay fat", it's "stop fucking over fat people, assholes"

And lemme be clear, fat does not inherently cause health issues. It can in some cases, but that's usually from a combo of factors, not just fat. And quite frankly, even in the cases where it is unhealthy for a person to remain fat, /it is their own damn choice/. Our bodies, our choices. I should be able to transition even though it makes me sterile and has a ton of risks (like elevated breast cancer risks and risk of pelvic issues from surgery). Someone should be able to use drugs if they want, despite the harm it could cause. Someone should be able to get an abortion if they so desire, even tho it kills the fetus. A disabled person can refuse treatment if we wish because it's our bodies here.

So even if the fat is killing them, it's their goddamn choice to refuse treatment and how dare anyone treat them as less for living the way they choose to.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Genderbitch: And lemme be clear, fat does not inherently cause health issues

What did you think of what Great Christina wrote about her knees? (see link) Is she ignorant too, or is it just the low-class redneck non-college grad who is ignorant?

I don't self-righteously preach to you about transition, please don't tell me about my own health issues.

At a young age, fat is easy to take. In fact, for youth, I would probably agree w/you. However, when you get older, and when many of these fat activists are past 50 there is gonna be major trouble. (Can you link me to one that is older and that is over, say, 225 lbs and has never had any joint issue? PS: NO desk workers, please.)

And lemme be clear, I now have NO pain (joints) where I had plenty 30 lbs ago. Carrying 30 lbs around ALL THE TIME (go ahead and lift 30 lbs, carry it around for about 15 years, work 8 hrs a day on your feet, and then get back to me) is not easy to do. It is a simple fact that a car, truck, bicycle, couch, bed, table or chair will break down faster if it carries more weight... why would organic material like flesh, blood, ligaments and bones, be any different? This is physics we are talking about.

the assuming fat comes from eating

But for me, it does. Am I supposed to stay silent about that? Why?

What about the hundreds of folks (maybe thousands, after all these years) I talk to about fat on my job (I work in a health food store), who say their fat is from eating, from bad food choices, from no opportunities to exercise-- are they expected to stay silent too? Are they just wrong about THEIR lives too?

And why did my thyroid medication get lowered? Why is my cholesterol and triglycerides so much better since I lost 30 lbs? This is a measurable difference. (Do you want the actual numbers? I can go dig em up, HDL, LDL, etc, if you want.)

Our bodies, our choices

So this means you approve of gastric by-pass surgery also? Or are some choices (like surgery, or like my choice to attempt weight loss the old fashioned way) not approved by the FA movement?

Why not?

As a person harassed most of my life, long before you were born, I don't need FA to explain my own life to me, and why we need to lay off the fat people. I am/was/have been one, for many years. But I also know that facts are facts, however much we might want to ignore them. And I will not comform to Stalinist demands that
I can't discuss my own life and my own pain and my own best friend/aunt/mother dying, all because it's not PC. I am not harming anyone discussing these matters on my own blog that no one really bothers to read anymore anyway.

So even if the fat is killing them, it's their goddamn choice to refuse treatment and how dare anyone treat them as less for living the way they choose to.

AGAIN, let me specify, I was talking like this long before you were born. Just as you might get pissed if some 15 year old started telling you all about transition, I get a little pissed when people who haven't carried extra weight for 53 years (maybe minus 10 years, off and on, as an almost-thin person) try to tell me how I must feel, or assume I don't understand what is at stake.

What I dislike is political correctness, which the right wing uses to eat us alive and drive wedges between us. I haven't felt as libertarian lately as during this conversation, and my libertarian friends are sending me emails, like "I told you so"... yes, they sure did. The Left tries to control speech they don't like, and I am heartily sick of it... but yes, that is part of a dissolution of the old coalition, which is currently happening on schedule.

"History always repeats itself twice: first time as tragedy, second time as farce"--Daddy Karl

Unfortunately, the Farce is what we are seeing now.

DaisyDeadhead said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mama moretti said...

silly d, dont u know egotistical 20 yr olds (redundant) know everything? older ppl 'ignorant' just ask & theyll tell u, lol.

gb, wrong, diabetes 65% more likely in obese ppl. i speake fr/experince.

sorry text/blogger hard 2 do!

PS check yr FV gifts!

white rabbit said...

One of my fave quotes from Komrade Karl - the full quote is 'Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce' (from The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon - a pretty cool name for a book too).

DaisyDeadhead said...

Unless we talk about obesity and health, how can we get the societal changes we want? Right now, the situation is: No places/opportunities for physical activity (no sidewalks in the suburbs, for instance, is a huge factor); addictive foods laden with transfats, hydrogenated oils and high fructose corn syrup; a total lack of raw foods/produce in the inner cities (another huge factor), etc etc? If fat is okay, then these things are also okay, yes? ... since these are a few of the contributing factors, and most are profit-driven. (If these things are not okay with you, why aren't they? If fat isn't harmful, it's okay for ppl in the inner cities to be deprived of produce, no biggie. Right? I mean, you are claiming that isn't harmful, is that correct?)

Is it *okay* for corporations to say "fuck people's health" and refuse to take any responsibility? Do you want this state of affairs to continue? Because I don't, and I am actively working for change.

With all due respect, Genderbitch, I think I probably have a more positive influence in many fat's people's daily lives than you do.

(And please, smart and wholly-superior college girl, do not call me ignorant again, or I will delete with aplomb. Read comment guidelines, you don't get to insult me.)

DaisyDeadhead said...

MM, can't get my Farmville to load! Someone on Facebook thinks I was "phished" and I dunno what I should do about that. Stay tuned.

Meghan said...

@genderbitch:
"And I'm being nicer here than I was with Meghan because I know you and I like you. Meghan is pretty well known around these parts for having entrenched bigotry and an inclination to avoid all accountability. I still feel like there's still hope for you. Please don't prove me wrong."
What?! Well known around what parts? Since 2 days ago?! This is some manipulative shit if I ever heard any. First of all, I don't think you were being any 'nicer' to Daisy, than you were to me, and second of all - I am well known for nothing! I have been blogging for, like, 2 months, and our readership, until recently, as been limited to, like, my mom. I really appreciate you acting as though I am well known in any community, particularly a feminist one, but, alas, I am not. And to warn Daisy, that WATCH OUT, I am being NICE to you now (when clearly you are being anything but nice) but you'll REALLY see what mean is if you push me, look at what I did to this girl! - is a threat. If you did YOUR reasearch you would see, clearly, that I am small potatoes here in blog land. Where you are getting this 'Meghan has a reputation for...' is beyond me (but flattering, I must say).

Sonja Newcombe said...

Chin up, daisy! You've every right to discuss your situation, and if they can't accept that, they can go jump.

Jim said...

"I see the pictures of my classmates and they all look so fantastic."

Pictures lie. Apparently you don't. Go with that. For the rest of what oyu mention; get thee toa chiropractor. Even if extra weight is exacerbating the problems, the real underlying cause is soemthing different; something is putting pressure on some nerves.

DDH - they erased you out of that thread entirely. Classy.
i had a similar experience of being lectred on my own life after a commnet I made to the effect that a middle-aged blue-collar was not necessarily a raging homphobe. I got treated toa series of lectures about systemic homphobia, larded with all kinds of pass-agg rhetorical tricks, and it ended finally with some pompous child chiding me about my "privilege", at which point I suddenly realized the lazy, asuupmtioning little twit had been assuming all along that I was straight.

talk about being lectured on your own life.

Just hopeless even talking with some of them. Some OTOH are great. I started liking Alara after I got past someof her rough edges.

DSens said...

Hi!
Gah that commet thread was a load of fail! Seriously, this is why I am now relating to Heartless bitches and Ayn Rand much more to Femineste and shakesville and the like...its become a bunch of ohhh your triggering me ohhh you said lame or crazy! Thats not what feminism is supposed to be! And this is from a fat person who is trying to lose weight and has a mental illness nope not nueroatypical, a mental illness. Thanks for writing this, I also got called a sell out for admitting that yes I WANT to lose weight!

Amber Rhea said...

I have little interest in arguing about fat acceptance, mainly because I can see both sides and both make good points (to my mind). But comments like this really creep me out:

"Meghan is pretty well known around these parts for having entrenched bigotry and an inclination to avoid all accountability. I still feel like there's still hope for you."

It's this hive mind mentality that sends shivers up my spine. I was piled on and marked as persona non grata about a year and a half ago by the bullies masquerading as "feminist bloggers" and it was a real eye-opening experience. The fact that people are MARKED as forever "good" or "bad" bothers me on a very fundamental level.

genderbitch said...

@Daisy:

And what am I supposed to call an opinion that's flat out fucking wrong that you flaunt at any occasion? Whatever. Delete me. I can't bring myself to care at this point.

And yes, we should talk about health in general. We should fix health things in general. In fact, there shouldn't be insurance companies because that's a big reason why everyone get screwed (business where profit is gained from screwing people? Not good). Not every obese person is unhealthy though. Encouraging these stereotypes sure as hell isn't positive.

@Moretti:

When you make a stats claim (65%) I won't believe a fucking word of it if you use personal experience. Stats is science, not anecdote. Gimme a link or don't bullshit me.

genderbitch said...

@Meghan:

Actually I'd like to apologize to you. You had a few incidents in the past where you acted pretty awful to people but the way you handled things with Jem was right on and awesome. Not only that but it was entirely fair and very empathetic.

So I vastly underestimated you as a person and I apologize for acting on that like a giant assuming bitch. Sorry.

SnowdropExplodes said...

"the assuming fat comes from eating"

But for me, it does. Am I supposed to stay silent about that? Why?

What about the hundreds of folks (maybe thousands, after all these years) I talk to about fat on my job (I work in a health food store), who say their fat is from eating, from bad food choices, from no opportunities to exercise-- are they expected to stay silent too? Are they just wrong about THEIR lives too?


Thunderous applause again.

My fat is definitely from eating, and my health issues are related to those issues of eating and being fat, so trying to pretend it's all just fine and dandy and okay really isn't going to cut it with me.

@genderbitch - there's a world of difference between assuming something is true of someone else on the one hand, and on the other hand stating that something is true of oneself and stating what the consequences and choices based on that truth are that one has made.

There is a world of difference between saying that there is no ethical or moral criticism due for having a certain body shape (i.e. being fat) on the one hand, and on the other saying that there are physical and physiological consequences related to that (related either as cause and effect, or by being both caused by a third factor, e.g. poor diet).

Saying "So even if the fat is killing them, it's their goddamn choice to refuse treatment" is all very well, but unless we can discuss openly and without fear of censure the ways in which fat (or its causes) can have bad consequences, then it ISN'T "their goddamn choice".

And, unless fatties like me, like those to whom Daisy speaks in her health food shop, and so on, can tell our truths openly, then frankly, that's not "fat acceptance"; that's "yay fatness!"

I would like to lose weight, I really would (although I would also like to keep my moobs at the same time). I fail to do so either because I can't, or more likely because I am unwilling to make all the changes that I would have to make in order to do so (so also, you can chalk up "my truth is also that I'm lazy", if you like - but not assume it of me or anyone else who's tubby just because I am). That's my body, that's my choice. And whatever the consequences of that, I make an informed choice.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Genderbitch, not a single answer to a single direct question? If I am indeed "flat out fucking wrong"--you don't seem to be able to prove that, or even respond respectfully, intelligently or decently. Oh that's right, you suddenly "don't care"--how convenient! Because if you "don't care"--then you magically don't have to back up your little politically-correct fairy tales, right?

I think your your comments here speak for themselves BEAUTIFULLY: you have no logical arguments and no back-up. "Let's talk about health" you say?
Um, okay, well WHY didn't you answer a single one of the multiple HEALTH questions I asked?

And please note: I'm still waiting for the link to the 225 lb-fat person over 50, who has stood on their feet for 15 years with no joint problems (surely, you can find ONE who has had the same stand-up job for ONLY 15 years, I am not even asking for their whole life!). JUST. ONE. JUST. ONE.

LOL, can't do it, smart college gal? Didn't think so.

Genderbitch to Moretti: Gimme a link or don't bullshit me.

LOL, see above. I asked you for one too, didya overlook that?

Same right backatcha, PROUD FORMER TROLL. (BTW, correction, I didn't say ALL obese people. Stop the troll games, rewriting what I have said, PROUD FORMER TROLL.)

BTW, I'm glad you and Meghan are all good friends now, and it was all just a huge misunderstanding. Isn't that nice? (Meghan, have you been invited in the Hive now? All is forgiven!)

Amber Rhea, Hive Mind is certainly the word. I just wish they'd stop the gang-banging, but some people need an audience.

Waves at the Hive Mind!

Snowdrop, thank you very much for back-up. :)

DaisyDeadhead said...

Snowdrop: Saying "So even if the fat is killing them, it's their goddamn choice to refuse treatment" is all very well, but unless we can discuss openly and without fear of censure the ways in which fat (or its causes) can have bad consequences, then it ISN'T "their goddamn choice".

And, unless fatties like me, like those to whom Daisy speaks in her health food shop, and so on, can tell our truths openly, then frankly, that's not "fat acceptance"; that's "yay fatness!"


Reprinting this for emphasis.

I know, "their choice" is bullshit, when most people I talk to do not even know what HFCS is and wonder WHY its in their can of soup and everything else they buy. They did not and could not make an informed decision to eat High Fructose Corn Syrup, since it was quietly smuggled into the same basically-harmless brand of soup we consumed as children, the same Campbells Soup immortalized by Andy Warhol. The same Capt Crunch, the same Pop-Tarts. Who knew that the formulas had radically changed? Most people don't know this and therefore, no "informed choice" was even possible.

I hate the Atkins diet for the high-meat content, but at least he got people reading labels and asking "Why is there HCFS in my ketchup?"... Indeed, why? It didn't used to be there.