Friday, April 15, 2011

Ain't this boogie a mess?

I need some soundtrack to getting tarred and feathered over at Womanist Musings. Comments welcome, here or there.

I am told there is something... off... about the language of my post, according to one gentleman-commenter. I told him, it is likely because I use the language of his mother, rather than his friends.

And a story from the 70s gets translated into a story from NOW, and found weirdly wanting. Well, that was then and this is now, could be why. (I am very, very weary of today's standards being applied to the past. Yes, we all know better now, but that was not the point of the story.)


See, this is why I am so reluctant to guest-blog. HERE at DEAD AIR, yall know I am an old hippie, and I am not taken to task for calling someone ELSE a hippie. Jesus H.

If I recount a story from the 70s, some of yall can even REMEMBER the 70s. ;)

Anyway, speaking of old hippies, Frank on Friday to the rescue! What would I do without this show, centering me every Friday at noon?

This one contains one of those incomparable Zappa guitar solos... and of course, Frank's famous dissertation on the meaning of the apostrophe, containing today's blog post title. (It sure is!)

Frank Zappa - Stinkfoot



like every thing about this place..

DaisyDeadhead said...

Ain't that the truth!

Sings: Poodle bites, poodle chews it, poodle bites, poodle chews it...

Dave Dubya said...

Good story followed by good music. And that is the crux of the biscuit.

Anonymous said...

that comment thread is especially ghastly considering the PF post you linked to a few days ago. public shaming to the rescue!

it sounds like you know that lots of people still love you, which is good because lots of people love you!

Joan Kelly said...

oh my motherfucking christ, Daisy! That fucking thread, I can't beLIEVE the horseshit flying over there. Wait, yes I can, because it's Womanist Musing. (Sorry, I know you like Renee, but I find her a hypocrite and a dishonest one at that, who hosts not just poorly written and offensive guest posts [example - I think one of the commenters on your post], but is full of her own offensiveness as well.)

But seriously, that first woman who "called you out?" A FUCKING WHITE WOMAN HERSELF. But NO, no WHITE SAVIOR COMPLEX on HER part there, not at all, jumping in to take you to task for shit that didn't even make sense, self-appointedly on behalf of all the non-white people you just harmed with your post according to her more-in-tune-with-people-of-color-than-you sensibilities. FUCK. HER.

I don't think that every single point made over there, that had any critique of what you actually SAID and what the substance of your post was about, was bullshit. I'm just saying that I saw a lot of bullshit flying over there. And it was the height of motherfucking irony that a bunch of people who were not around when HIPPIES WERE FUCKING EVERYWHERE AND SOMEONE WHO IS/WAS A HIPPIE HERSELF MIGHT HAVE A BETTER FUCKING CLUE THAN SOMEONE WHO WASN'T THERE MIGHT HAVE ABOUT WHETHER THAT FUCKING DUDE WAS A FUCKING HIPPIE OR NOT thought they had a right to accuse YOU of ageism, of all fucking things!!!

(Congratulations, you got me on a day when I was already pissed about other shit, ha.)

My favorite line though, was when you said "you're welcome" to that young male commenter, about his being educated on feminism. That's the stuff that my-love-for-Daisy if made of.

And no, I'm not commenting over there, for various reasons, not least of which is that I can't stand that blog to begin with, and especially because a self-righteous white woman who storms in to "call out" another white woman for supposed self-righteousness? The unreality of it all is beyond my toleration levels on this particular day.

I think your post had value. I got what you were saying. I think it's relevant to question how we, as white people, talk about the things you were talking about (and I don't mean tone, I mean framing and where we locate ourselves within it), but I have had an assfull of young people screeching "ageism" when you say a simple truth like "I was alive in 1971 and things were like this, and it is not correct to compare what things are like now to what things were like then."

Is it me, or aren't these often the same people who get their panties in a bunch about those who "deny the lived experience" of others? I guess lived experience only counts if it was lived post 1980-ish and falls in with the party line of Best White Ally of the Day manueverings. Fucking nauseating.

Marshall Stacks said...

Loved Mr Frank Zappa from the moment I heard him in 1968, and his Mothers, and their wives ... bless his soul.
Going to go to SanFrancisco ... play my bongos in the dirt...
peace and love

JoJo said...

We love you Daisy!

southcarolinaboy said...

Oh...I seen on my Tumblr dashboard someone had reblogged a rant someone else wrote about someone calling someone a hippie on Womanist Musings. I didn't realize it was you they were talking about. Sorry you are dealing with this.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Too bad that poor Mary (over at WM) doesn't even know that my new policy is: I don't believe anyone without a blog or some kind of profile is real. She's probably Kate Middleton pretending to be black and just having some late-night fun.

As for Iced Chai, she's another to put me off iced chai. A really stupid asshole, who still can't answer the questions of what ELSE I should do when people might get deported. (Obviously, looking and ACTING PC is far more important than some brown folks being deported.) But now they are tumblr-ing me to death, and some flake named Jemima Aslana is accusing me of trying to kill her
with veganism. (I don't have the heart to tell her I'm not even a vegan!)

Anon, thank you. SCB, you my buddy. :)

Joan, yeah. Well, at least Renee seems to understand about ageism, but seems unable to spot it when it happens. The fixation over certain WORDS is one thing... if I had just used the trendy words, they might actually concentrate on the substance of my post. Instead, they nitpick over certain words, which is supposed to mean ALL. KINDS. OF. EVIL. SHIT... when really all it means is you never learned the new words and still use the old ones.

I also believe a lot of this shit is simple unbridled, undisguised joy in beating up MOMMY; Sigmund Freud, call your office.

Just read an old article about how civil rights pioneers are revered, while feminist pioneers are spit on. Written in 1989 and could have been written 5 minutes ago.

mama moretti said...

d - wow i guess u weren't kidding. 2 tumblr posts about you! i'm freakin jealous.

do these people have lives or what? where do they get time to just blog about other posts to the tune of 7000 words or someting? shit

i agree mary sounds like a fake. all that sound and fury signifying nothing. usually ppl with so much to say have links to themselves. when they don't there trolls.

"Kinsey Hope" has been trash-talking you, whoever s/he is, so u should know. its all over the tumblrs. Your sooo popular - lots of people claim to know u like a celeb - u bitch!

please answer Farmville requests and get over this foolishness

DaisyDeadhead said...

MM, first I have to go to confession and say the Chaplet of Divine Mercy 100 times, and 5 Our Fathers and 5 Hail Marys. Lenten Devotions, St Alphonsus De Liguori!!!!!!!! And then I have to learn to cook with Paula Deen! Who's a bitch!?! :P
Making one of them Paula Deen Mountain Dew cakes, just for you.

Thanks for showing up here and sharing your love. Missed you! (kiss)

DaisyDeadhead said...

To the Twitterer who asked why I don't 'set them straight'.

Well, I have no tumblr acct and have no idea even how to use one. Apparently, you can't comment on Open ID because I did look for that option.

My opinion: I think they are profoundly unhappy people, and as always, old women make good scapegoats. I mean, one little post brings forth thousands and thousands of words in vicious commentary? Its just bizarre, and all out of proportion to anything I could possibly have done. They don't even write this much about serial killers!

But I sure wish I could corral all of this energy for the GOP-debate protest next month! But you know, something tells me these people don't do real activism, but just like to bitch at the people who do.

As I have said before, the intention is to silence whomever they disagree with, not dialogue. They don't settle for less. Notice on WM (if you are reading that thread), where Mary kept getting mad at me for simply responding to her (inaccurate, stupid) comments. NO dialogue allowed (which I consider the mark of serious radicals), they just want to beat you down into total silence and submission. Then, they have won.

They would censor any attempt I made to comment on their tumblrs. But thank you for asking.

Any other questions about the WM thread, please have the decency to sign your name!

John Powers said...

I scrolled through the comments but couldn't really bring myself to read them, or many of them. That's mostly because I loved your post.

Recently a videographer and producer came out to see this place as a possible location. The project is basically a "say no if you're not ready for sex" thing. Anyhow once the video is made then there's a research project assessing behavior changes of members of groups who see it.

A long wind-up to explain that we got talking about the scene and I mentioned Jackson Katz's bystander model in violence prevention. I think I'd just watched Tony Porter's TED Talk before they came too.

Being concerned about violence isn't new, but the idea of my being an "empowered bystander"--Katz--is new to me. And your story pulls one in to see the value in this idea and tactic: Aha! I'm not trying to interject some sociological theory into your story, but the gist of it is clear. How some readers missed the point, I can't tell.

I may not be stoned much anymore, but I'm still am too oblivious. Helping prevent bullying and gendered violence is something even old hippies like me can do with just a little noticing. I got to notice because violence against girls and women tears me up.

bryce said...

d, there u go again. y do u care what assholes think? we went over this b4.

c u 4/16 . we can talk then-xoxoxo

Anonymous said...

WM: squealing little bitchez. look at me Renee, no Renee, look at MEEEE. and one of them got a LINK by kissing Renee's ass. Daisy you didn't kiss enough ass so you can't fit in over there. name of the game is kiss. Renee's. ass.

"mary" -- you sure she isn't a Renee sockpuppet too? cause i'm not.

kate middleton! lol

Mr Pibb said...

D, idiot clusterfuck, let it go.

This is why I stopped reading WM, which started out with high readability. Renee can't control her commenters. Oh yeah she'll put a smackdown on racist trolls but not anti-racist trolls. And they are now running her. I see she even links to them now. This is the sign of someone with no integrity. Even as poc, no inclination to wade thru all the bullshit.

As stated above, we love you. And MM is right, go back to FV.

wriggles said...

Haven't sipped any "Iced Chai" yet, so maybe presumptious, but just to say, having worked in retail myself, over here in the UK, "taking over" a customer is exactly what we call it too.

Happens for the same reason, the customer is harrassing the staff serving them.

I remember taking over from a young white middle class girl who was new and not being trained who could not find a certain item for an increasingly bullying and superior white middle middle class woman who was much older than the girl manically trying to serve her.

I was passing and could so I took over. The sun shone out of my behind because I could deliver the gratification required.

And no I wouldn't have told on her either, I calmed her down and reassured her because, it happens to us all. Others did it for me too.

This kind of "assumption of bad faith" confrontation seems to be piling up around the nets about now.

It has been waiting to happen because it doesn't matter how 'oppresed' or 'aware' you are, being an a~hole, is still being a pain in the arse.

And no, intent isn't the whole of the law, including that of the call out crew too.

Corey said...

Well ya had to know that was coming...I can't take WM and Shakesvillian vibe the whole place has. And yeah, i suspect the commentariat spends waaaay more time sitting in front of their computers getting all tingly in anticipation of someone setting off their sanctimony alarms than they do putting their energy into real life activism. Blagh.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Wriggles, "The sun shone out of my behind" is something my grandma (namesake of this blog) used to say, and you made me nostalgic and happy this morning. :) Haven't heard that in decades!!! What a great phrase!

Please visit more, and bring your charming British expressions!

Corey, Dave, Marshall, Anon x2, John, Mr Pibb (took me a minute to figure out who you were!) thank you for comments and moral support.

timberwraith said...

Hmmmm. That thread was a bit of a mess. Sometimes, I wish folks could just assume that the other person is speaking with the best intentions, meet them in the middle, and then attempt to have a decent conversation. However, the internet does have it's Wild West appeal... and a lot of folks arrive at their keyboards heavily armed.

As usual, I enjoyed the story you told. I just skimmed the comment thread, though. After a decade of roaming around bloglandia, I've found that yelling at people gets really old.

Anonymous said...

read whole thread. "mary" is major concern troll.


senchi said...

your post on tues described these ppl to a T. read it again. what do you expect from ppl who think in tv commercials? everything is either good/bad - very dualistic/simplistic thought process. mary could be troll or just raised on tv - can't process complexity.

my other thought: for ppl who claim all this 'oppression' they sound awfully soooooperior!

word verif - levoctfi. i tell you they just get longer.

D. said...

When I looked at that yesterday, there were ~20 comments and I got a headache. This morning there are 100, and after looking at the bottom 10 I was strongly reminded of, um, that anti-racist guy for whom every other anti-racist is doing it wrong and the conflict-resolution group I was (fsvo) briefly in.

You are made of stronger stuff than I am, Daisy.

When you defend the defenseless, or those whose defenses are porous, it helps because it a) deflects some of the stress and b) models good defense.

I think a midday cup of coffee is called for. (Sleep? Who needs sleep?)

Anonymous said...

i'm the anon from above, and i'm bummed to learn daisy doesn't think i exist, but i also understand, and am also a bit paranoid, so no moniker for me.

anyway, looking over the whole ugliness at WM again, i'm struck by the fact that all this outrage was engendered by a story whose lesson was: SOMETIMES YOU CAN HELP PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP.

there has to be something seriously wrong when advocating the NOTION of helping people draws such ire. daisy, you're right when you say that word-choice makes an enormous difference in how people like that see you, but i have the quite dreary impression that they actually are upset at what you actually said. ugh.

Marion said...

I loved your post, Daisy, and wouldn't concern myself one bit about those youngsters practicing to be mature adults and losing bitterly over at that blog. I know exactly what your point was. Perhaps it's because I WAS there in the Olden days, heh!

Great music, thank you so much!!

NPThomas said...

Daisy, lending support as a sometime-WM reader. I was as 'flabbergasted' by that mess as you were. I remember days of direct action and I knew what you refered to.

The last anon had good point = it seems the very idea of helping others earns scorn from these holier-than-thou types. They don't 'need help' except when they're constantly whining about privilege and the horrid white women's tears. For 'womanists' who claim they don't want the input of white women, they seem wholly obsessed with them. I don't know any WOC as obsessed with white women as 'womanists' at that board. And their fly/pomo vocabularies make it clear that they've had their share of privileges. They illustrate the 'victim pychology' that has destroyed the Movement in Amerikkka. As a WOC, I hate that the white conservative male in the thread was correct.

I'm looking forward to more of your work.

Joan Kelly said...

I'm as aggravated with what I see as the nonsense over at WM as many other people here, I just wish folks could refrain from calling any female commenters over there "bitches" and dismissing any of the commenters as "idiots." The former, because it is misogynist, the latter, because it is simply inaccurate.

Someone can be wrong, and irritatingly so, and even disingenuous and intentionally hurtful in their attempts to "call someone out," without being an idiot.

Plus, while I don't romanticize people with lower IQs just on the basis of lower IQ-ness, I will say that most of the not-too-bright people I've known in my life have been disinclined to go around trying to hurt and control people or stir shit, period. So I'm not saying "being an idiot is some horrible thing so don't call anyone that!" I'm just saying some people were jackasses over there, and insulting their intelligence is just flat off-topic.

The first commenter who went to town on Daisy was a white woman, who, on her own tumblr, said "if I “picked apart” anything, it was her [Daisy's] writing" (vs the idea that she picked about Daisy herself), and then the Mary commenter person, every time Daisy said "whoa, that is not what *I* said, that you are claiming I said," Mary would accuse Daisy of "ableism" from Daisy simply stating facts about what had, and had not, been said. Discrepancies in who gets to say what to who = rampant on that thread.

Lastly I want to say - I dislike Renee for my own reasons, but I don't think it's fair or accurate to accuse her of being Mary, in sock-puppet form. Renee is quite capable - as she showed in the very thread in question when addressing another white woman commenter - of saying whatever the hell is on her mind, no holds barred.

Basically my points are - there is a lot of jackassery going on at that thread. And Daisy, I feel like the fact that there is ALWAYS room (as you say yourself) for people to question and challenge and disagree with each other, particularly on topics as raw for all involved as this topic is, I feel like in light of the fact that you put yourself out there (which Renee also gave Daisy creidt for, which is another reason I didn't think the Mary-is-Renee-being-a-sock-puppet accusation was fair) and then you got unfairly and irrationally in some cases attacked, REALLY highlighted the fact that you conducted yourself with self-respect and an admirable amount of backbone in that thread. I'm sorry you had to go through it, but I respect how you comported yourself. Sorry if that makes me sound like I think I'm your high school guidance counselor!!

Just saying, I support your right to hold your ground the way you did against some of the wildest accusations and insults, and I don't know what all gives with all these other people now having tumblr and twitter fests about Daisy-is-the-devil or something, but my own trust level of people I've only talking to and not met yet on the internet is so low, I give little credence to those types of gleeful gang-ups. Yeah, you can sometimes go for the jugular when you're pissed. Surprise, it's not exactly an uncommon trait or behavior, including among some of the very same people I've seen putting you down for it. Hypocritical spinelessness seems to rule the day lately.

thene said...

I miss all the good fights these days.

I didn't read the whole thread, but it feels like there are people in the world who do ACTIVISM and care about ending up with a positive result, and then there are people who care about whether other people think that all the words they use are acceptable. Words can & do cause a lot of hurt but not everyone who gets on about them even seems to care about addressing that hurt, or about getting any kind of result at the end of the day. :/

I don't think the thousands and thousands of words are that big a deal considering that they are being said by so many people - a candle fanned by the pure oxygen of internet architectures. I don't use tumblr but what I've been told by friends who use it is that it's really easy to post on, especially when it comes to image posts - which explains why tumblrs often read like snatches of impulse; a pornography of socialising. (Didn't someone upthread just mention people thinking like TV adverts? 30 seconds, and it has to be totally good or totally bad. Impulse.)

I'm ambivalent about your post on WM; I've been to too many different womens' workshops that have been RUINED by That One Guy Who Won't Shut Up. (after a while they all start to look the same...and I'm not even a real activist so I imagine lots of other people who've been involved at the fringes like that have also had to deal with That One Guy. Wow is he annoying. I don't want him to stand up for me, I want him to shut up for a moment and let me listen to what women have come here to say & do).

That said; it sounds a bit like my position when it comes to anti-immigrant prejudice. Anti-immigrant sentiment in the USA is racism. I know this because white Americans regularly regale me with their anti-immigrant conspiracy theories and then seem susprised when I refute these theories. (I have a library of witty rebuttals by now - 'It's awful how some people earn money here and then send it out of the USA -' 'Yeah, all those old white guys hiding billions of dollars in Switzerland and committing tax fraud? They're disgusting, aren't they?') Or they expect me to share their hate for 'illegal immigrants'.

Where did all this 'anti-immigrant' sentiment spring from since I was first over here in 2005? From having a president who isn't white. Duh. They are scared and looking to white immigrants for support. Immigrant solidarity fucks them up. Solidarity is a good way for all of us to fuck them up.

thene said...

Okay, having read those Iced Chai posts, I can offer a brief summary of them:

1. She didn't read the entire post, and her skipping over your bio is your fault.

2. As an older person you are required to educate her about age. But it's you who's the ageist, not her!

DaisyDeadhead said...

Thene, well, that makes sense.

BTW, loved your post, when you said: 'Yeah, all those old white guys hiding billions of dollars in Switzerland and committing tax fraud? They're disgusting, aren't they?'

This used to set my Taft-Republican grandfather OFF like you wouldn't believe! LOL--he really was anti ALL the immigrants, but he really did single out the rich, movie stars, people with two homes (and when he heard the word "Switzerland"--OMG! The whole family was like, don't talk about Switzerland, please.)

When asked about the migrant workers, he waved them away like gnats. WHAT ABOUT SWITZERLAND?! He always kept his eye on the ball with that, LOL.

I had forgotten that, and you have reminded me. We don't hear about that any more, do we?! William Howard Taft is spinning in his grave.

Thanks so much for your comments.

SC Boy said...

(Splitting into two comments just for safes.)

I did get around to reading the epic comment thread on WM. Interesting how (like you said) they were "calling you out" for having white privilege, when, yeah, that's what the post was about. There was one person who posted something like, "Anti-racism shouldn't all come down to how a white person 'looks',” which is a good point. Then someone else, (might’ve been you,) said, "They have learned how to not be called-out for racism, but they haven't learned how not to be racist." I am paraphrasing, but I think those three points just about summed it up. (Tipping the hat to thene above for putting it so well.)

I am really glad you included the personal anecdote about the man who physically put himself between you and the creeper. I used to think when I was young that if a potential rapist were fucking with me, that I'd rather be left alone to fight him myself than for a prince to come along and kick the shit out of him for me. Because even though the prince might save me from an attack, I hated to think of myself as having to be saved by a man from another man. BUT it is much better to be saved by the prince than for him to stand by and let someone rape/harass/attack you, because in either case, the overall social dynamics are the same, and the way some bystander handles this one occurrence is not going to change the world, but it might make a difference in how this one occurrence turns out.

SC Boy said...

I completely get what you are saying about Senator DeMint making a bee-line for the Latina employees. It's not as though he happens to ask for advice/information from workers who happen to be Latina. He sees Latina-looking women and scopes them out on purpose for the point of exposing how well they do or don't speak English, with the intention that he will complain to management if they can't talk to him at a fluency level that he deems necessary. This is not a clueless white man who happens upon people who don't know English well and is ignorant about what his complaining might mean to them. He is fully aware of what he is capable of, and also aware that he can hide behind the guise of clueless whiteness.

I am not sure how "ageist" an older person can be toward a younger person. An adult toward a child? Sure. An older adult toward a younger adult? Yeah, it seems to me like "reverse racism." "But how do you know he was a hippie? But how do you know he went to a workshop? But how do you know the black peeps didn't know they were being filmed? But how do you know?" There’s this sense around Blogdonia of, "I have learned everything and I know everything, and I am now educated; therefore if I hear anything new, it must be you being wrong/uneducated because if you were onto something, I would know already, because I know everything.” That attitude is an easy one to have when you are, indeed, more educated than the general public about social justice issues, and I’ve fallen into the trap myself. But none of us have learned everything. There is always more.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Renegade Evolution has weighed in:

‘Cause no one puts Daisy in a Corner!

It's a great post! :D

roykay said...

Oh dear. You went and implied people, as individuals, have power - if they will only screw up the wit and courage to use it. If people did that, they might also solve problems rather than blaming their favorite demon for them.

Soooooooooo, you have to be denounced. Fortunately, those denouncements are already in the can, and all it takes if a search and replaced. Beat thinking anyway. Beats having wit and courage in the real world too. Better to denounce your in a nice "safe space".

I thought it was a pretty good post. Then again, I am sure I am The Patriarchy (R) incarnate, so my opinion is probably worthless there.

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